30-11-2002 23:10									#1
	Why don't people like spying in MOO2? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have been reading the custom race threads and keep seeing that the spying to the negatives to get more pick points.

Why do you guys do that? I love the spying aspects of the game and grab the +20(6 points) for spying. I love to steal the techs and sobotage the aliens planets.

Don't people play the spy game?

Please explain so I can understand better.

Thanks

Davor

	01-12-2002 01:20									#2
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You have a limited number of negative choices to use. Spying is one that can be over come via technology. Repulsive can not be off set by tech, so many take -spy. It will hurt until you get the tech or unless you have another racial trait to offset it (unification/telepathic). If you start near one of these race they will steal you blind until you can stop them by force or building spies. I do play races with +spying for fun at times, but that is not the norm (come to think of it I do not have a norm anymore).

	01-12-2002 01:33									#3
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From a MP perspective, spying will get you killed. Unification gets a +15 defensive spy bonus so you need to have +20 to have an advantage. Considering you just kissed off points that could have been applied to production you won't have as many spies anyway...and less ships...and less tech and you lose.

From my SP perspective, I tried to kill the computer as quickly as possible. Whether you take tech through spying or capturing planets or ships shouldn't have any effect on whether you win or not. It can effect how fast. For example powered armor will help speed my onslaught because I need less troops to get the job done.

	01-12-2002 02:48									#4
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Interesting.

	01-12-2002 20:08									#5
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I love to play the spy game. If I don't pick and spy traits, I never win in the spy game aspect, I get my ass kicked all over the place. When I use the + modifiers I usually do good and steal and sobotage alot.

I am going to try a game without spy modifiers and see what's it like but if I am not having fun onto a new game again with it.

Thanks for your answers

Davor

	05-12-2002 23:06									#6
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Correct me If I am wrong, but I thought getting tech through capture only worked in MoO1???????

OK Sabotage can be quite efficent to blast away a Starbase, which you can't destroy yet.....

On thing though, can't remember the name of the game, but there you had some more options for spying: like revolt of a ship, planet. Stealing tech and some others. Was quite frustrating to see one of your best ships changing sides This is an option I am missing. In MoO you can only say steal or sabotage.

Don't know if it had been mentioned here, but I have the feeling that in MoO1 it works best to steal, hide, sabotage, hide, steal ..... continue like this.
In MoO2, it didn't matter, once you had more spies, that's it, a bit sad........

	05-12-2002 23:35									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch Correct me If I am wrong, but I thought getting tech through capture only worked in MoO1??????? OK Sabotage can be quite efficent to blast away a Starbase, which you can't destroy yet..... On thing though, can't remember the name of the game, but there you had some more options for spying: like revolt of a ship, planet. Stealing tech and some others. Was quite frustrating to see one of your best ships changing sides This is an option I am missing. In MoO you can only say steal or sabotage.

Not sure what you mean by capture, but you can capture ships in Moo2 and scrap them with a chance to learn new tech. Spying will allow stealing tech in Moo2
It sounds like you are talking about Pax Imperium, You can run ops to cause revolts, assassinations and the like. It was too powerful, you could get a revolt on a planet that was not even known to you.
Moo1 allows you to trigger unrest, which can lead to a revolt.

	06-12-2002 11:30									#8
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YES, that's the one........

OK I agree, it was a bit too powerful, but it was nice to see one of your planets leaving your glorius empire and you had to fidle bringing up a 'task'-force to retake it. But the point about not known: It doesn't really matter, if you see it like: This planet is 'bored' with the politic of their current empire and decides to join you in the task of fighting against them.

In MoO2 this option is completly missing. Yes, in 1 it was there, but the AI was 'never' using it. The AI concentrates more on actual spying, then on sabotage, which I think is correct. If you are leading, it's better trying to take care of the advantage, then trying to 'convert' you, the chances are far lower anyway.

For the capture:
In MoO1, you captured a planet and you have a good chance of learning new techs. In 2, you capture and get: NOTHING.
Hey, doesn't sound logical, you capture a planet having new technologies and you are not able to learn from those????? That doesn't make sense at all!!!!!!!!! Also in MoO1, didn't matter so much if you are behind, take a planet, get 'even', make peace or fight. Works even for the AI. Espacially the Bulrathi, damned good ground-fighters...........

	06-12-2002 18:38									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch YES, that's the one........ For the capture: In MoO1, you captured a planet and you have a good chance of learning new techs. In 2, you capture and get: NOTHING. Hey, doesn't sound logical, you capture a planet having new technologies and you are not able to learn from those????? That doesn't make sense at all!!!!!!!!! Also in MoO1, didn't matter so much if you are behind, take a planet, get 'even', make peace or fight. Works even for the AI. Espacially the Bulrathi, damned good ground-fighters...........

HHMMM If I remember correctly you do get new tech when you capture a planet. I have done it a few times. I don't know what the formula is but it is possible.

Are you shure you don't already have the tech or destroyed any buildings due to bombing, when capturing the planet?

Davor

	06-12-2002 18:53									#10
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Actually I have given up taking planets in MoO2, as I don't play it for score, just for fun, I just destroy the colony and build a new one. Too much hassle for a good idea (multi-race).

But before I used to conquer and still got nothing. If it is building related, it would be even worse, as the AI doesn't build them like 'we' do.......

For this MoO1 was far better, but again less MM...........

	06-12-2002 20:33									#11
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The spying race +20 Spying, telepathic (for a total of +30) is very hard to play even in single player. This means that such race is very weak and does not have any chance in MP.

But it is still fun to play :-) Even sometimes the option to frame another race pops out :-)

	06-12-2002 22:37									#12
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That's right bakalov. I am trying that now with tele and +20 spy. I don't get much other bonus but will try and see what happens.

At Imposible level you fall behind tech anyways so I just steal what I am missing, I just wish that when you sabotage sometimes I would like to choose what I do as in Moo1. To destroy a starbase of my choosing would make a better strategy than a random destruction.

Davor

ps lets hope the spy game is even better in moo3

	07-12-2002 00:05									#13
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Gilgamensch I dislike the spying so much I talked Aaron Hall into making it an option to turn it off in Space Empires IV. I really hated it in Pax2, which was a fun game with way too much micromanagment and not enough combat. It had tons of tech and was fun to see what came next.

	13-12-2002 13:41									#14
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would be nice if you would have an option to turn it off, doesn't matter in which game.... Sometimes it can be quite anoying....

But I think it was more fun in MoO1, as mentioned, you were able to choose. This would make fare more sence in MoO2, as the starbases are sometimes hard to crack down......

But in Pax2, to much MM???? you had the nice pre-set queues????

	13-12-2002 22:52									#15
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Yes and you had build order in Stars, but I felt compelled to keep checking on all my planets tosee what was being done in both games.

	14-12-2002 05:12									#16
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I am thinking of restarting Stars as well, good old times

That's where I like CTP, easy overview about what to build and easy MM-management, you select a couple of cities add what you want to add/replace/..... also easy to see what is being build. Most other games you have to jump from planet to planet ...

Stars: I can't remember anymore... time to play ?

	14-12-2002 07:44									#17
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I get at least one game in every year (Stars!). Slogging through all the mines late in the game is the part where I sometimes call it quits. The out come is not in doubt and I am too lazy to keep building fleets to conquer all those planets. They keep trying to recolonizing them, so I station a battleship to intercept any atempt.

	14-12-2002 10:49									#18
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Spying in MoO2 is fun while you happen to be at war - the only negative in that situation is the production used to produce spies that could be used to build more ships. And the fact that capturing planets will sometimes get you missing techs anyway.

So yes, it isn't the most effective method of doing things, but it can be fun.

	14-12-2002 13:04									#19
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For stars: I liked to play with the race-attribute, which lives in the starbases, only thing I can remember in the moment, too long ago......

Shanky,

that's what is far easier in MoO1, you just had sliders for the spying. You actually are able to produce ships and increase your spying in the same time, for me far better and more ' reallistic'....

In MoO2, it is too much MM.....

	14-12-2002 23:37									#20
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Gilgamensch I like Claim Adjusters. see the Stars website for a strat guide that gives the attributes for monster races at Crisium.com.

	15-12-2002 13:08									#21
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I'll give it a try, I wanted to play anyway again

Sometimes I think that the old games are better than the new ones more original...........

	15-12-2002 13:47									#22
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I am not sure about beter, but they are at least fun and familar. Many of the newer games are hard to get into as they have long learning curves. Sometimes even sequels are hard to get the hang of.

	16-12-2002 15:04									#23
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An interesting combination if you want to play the spying game is to use the uncreative pick and negative science to pay for your +6 in spying. To get the maximum advantage from spying, you won't be researching techs yourself, so you might as well take negatives that have the least impact on your game.

A Feudal government is also recommended as science is halved already, but gives you other advantages (such as cheaper ships).

One problem however is that you can only have a maximum of 10 negative picks, meaning you can only choose two of them.

	23-12-2002 04:41									#24
	research thru spying Get a bigger avatar today!

This strategy reminds me of the Pakled race from Star Trek. They just run around, stealing tech to survive, while looking vaguely mentally retarded. Some choice quotes:

"We are Pakleds. Our ship is the Mandor. It is broken."

"We look for things." - "What things?" - "Things that make us go."

	23-12-2002 17:23									#25
	Re: research thru spying Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by granid This strategy reminds me of the Pakled race from Star Trek. They just run around, stealing tech to survive, while looking vaguely mentally retarded. Some choice quotes: "We are Pakleds. Our ship is the Mandor. It is broken." "We look for things." - "What things?" - "Things that make us go."

Don't forget

"You are smart. Make it go"

I say that to the guys at work all the time when something is broken.

Davor