01-12-2002 05:09									#1
	Military Calculator Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Anyone remember the Military Calculator that Mr. Orange created and was subsequently involved in a real doozy of a court hearing (judged by ours truly, NYE)?

I never used it much, and was not sure really how well it applied to the game at the time. BUT I asked the question then and I will ask it now: Should we use the MilCalc as an "experiment"? Not necessarily rely on it's information as completely and totally accurate, but to test it out in the PTWDemoGame? There are NO laws that concern this, NO constitution to abide by (like the mammoth one created in the C3DG, that just ceased to make the game fun for me personally), and no real reason NOT to at least test it out?

NYE I'm looking for some approval of some sort from you. You know way better than anyone here (except maybe maybe a really small few) what it's capable or not capable of. What is your thought?

As well as the thoughts of our teammates of course!
Questions?

	01-12-2002 05:12									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What are you talking about?

What does the MilCalc do?

	01-12-2002 05:18									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

?

	01-12-2002 05:34									#4
	Suffering from ads?

Good idea to check it out Mesh. It does not involve playing ahead in any way. It involves taking numbers from the various advisors, and those that are visible on the map (city size). The only problem would be map information. It is entirely likely that most of the Map will remain dark for a very long time. Obtaining World Maps will be one of the major goals of most wars.

	01-12-2002 06:40									#5
	Military Calculator Links/Background Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=64103

The thread that started a rather large controversy.

http://www.luckyorange.com

The location of the famed Military Calculator. Look about a quarter to halfway down and you will see it, although it's just a link to download it.

Tough to explain, but NYE summed it up pretty well. I'll elaborate a bit more. Mr. Orange decided he wanted to find out how strong the Apolyton military compared to the enemy military is (without using an embassy but by pure intelligence information gauged by the amount of units in the map and several other formulas).

I'm not sure if we were able to find his statistics, graphs and charts (which have thus been deleted long ago) accurate or not, but from what Mr. Orange said, he classified his stats as : ESTIMATED FACTS or something like that.

There was a large drama following it, some players called it cheating, etc etc, took it to the Court of Apolytonia, etc etc, and the rest is history. Mr. Orange ended up leaving the forum because of this creation of his. He would not have left had it not been very important to him, and probably took him a long time to make.

Regardless, once our maps are updated there is no law or rule that says we cannot use it here (not like in the C3DG). And I STRONGLY believe it would give us an added edge that the other teams probably forgot to take advantage of, or may use as well.

	01-12-2002 15:09									#6
	Got spare money?

Why not send Mr.Orange an email (I assume his 'poly account still exists and you can send one to the email he registered with)?

Let him know that we're interested in using it, perhaps he has a new version that he has posted on another Civ site? (since he didn't get a good reception at 'poly)

	01-12-2002 15:49									#7
	Suffering from ads?

I will do that.

Again, I strongly believe we may hold a very important military advantage if we use his Military Calculator. Although most of the formulas are based off of the information our world map may contain, we will definetely have an edge over the competition. Unless the other teams think about using it....

	01-12-2002 18:13									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

this is the one I use

although there is another more thorough calculator at a different civ fansite.

	02-12-2002 03:25									#9
	Remove this text

That Calculator is pretty cool OPD, not bad at all.

Mr. Orange's calculator was a bit more complicated I remember....

	02-12-2002 03:27									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've got a feeling we are on a smallish island anyway.

(looking at the minimap)

	02-12-2002 03:33									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

AFAIK, the most flexible battle calculator is this one at CivFanatics.
As for Mr. Orange's MilCalc... I'll have to think this through and play around with the MilCalc before I can contribute to this discussion.

	02-12-2002 03:33									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

OPD, that'sa combat calculator (the one at CFC is cooler).

I still don't get what this MilCalc thing is.

	02-12-2002 03:37									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

When Mr. Orange first announced it's completion, he used it as an example in the C3DG, using the maps that we had at the time to gauge the military strength of the other nations. I don't know how he did it either.

When he was finished however, he had charts, graphs, etc galore. While before we had no idea what the enemy armies had, we all of a sudden could make comparisons between our armies and theirs, knew how many units they had regionally, etc etc.

It was QUITE impressive. I still don't understand it, but researching it would be worth it I believe.

	02-12-2002 04:08									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

On a similar note, what about MapStat? Does it work for PTW saves?

	02-12-2002 04:22									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

MapStat? Is that a crack of some sort? Does it give information on unknown tiles (black area)?

	02-12-2002 04:24									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Why not ask Soren for some map info

j/k

	02-12-2002 04:47									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Mapstat tells you total number of land vs. sea tiles, and how many tiles of each type (e.g., grassland, hill, etc.), for the whole map, including black areas.

	02-12-2002 05:53									#18
	Remove this text

That would be out of bounds, I believe.

No one is supposed to do anything to gain information which is not available through the game without performing an irreversible action.

ie, We are not supposed to establish embassies or investigate cities, except in the official game, by the player.

The MilCalc is a human designed spread sheet. The same results could be obtained by a human using paper, pencil and reports avialable in the game without 'playing ahead' in any way. That is why it was judged to be kosher.

MapStat would have been judged cheating in the C3DG, from what you have told me.

/Edit. the term 'human designed spread sheet' is somewhat meaningless, since it is all designed by humans. better to say it is a mathematical aid, like a slide rule.

	02-12-2002 06:33									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

OK.

Still don't get MilCalc. If it's 'kosher,' can someone take ownership?

	02-12-2002 23:25									#20
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: I've got a feeling we are on a smallish island anyway. (looking at the minimap)

Begone, heretic!

You may be right. I hope not.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 02:37									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Theseus OK. Still don't get MilCalc. ...

What it is is a spreadsheet (or group of them).

You take data from off the screen, you know city size from map, how many of your units( and type), "This civ has archers", number of cities, civ ranking, etc ... plug the numbers/info in. The spreadsheet assumes a few things and spits out relative military strengths and what you can expect militarily.

As for ownership? I will not have PTW untill at least X-mas. It looks cumbersome, but I would like to know how good it is.

Mss