02-12-2002 03:04									#31
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quote: I like utopian visions as much as the next person but some of us prefer to deal with the real world.

not another one

again. slavery. 18th/19th century. If none had utopian visions, it would never have been abolished.

	02-12-2002 03:08									#32
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quote: I don't think that a nation has an absolute right to sovereignty. If a country began ethnic cleansing, do you still think you can watch from the sidelines and shrug and say "It's their sovereign country, none of my concern?"

another false argument. Freedom is a human right, but if someone kills someone else, that freedom is taken away. Same with nations.

quote: Slavery has certainly not always worked.

nor has realpolitik

quote: Slavery is a different beast. It's just not RIGHT.

says who? for centuries, millenia, it was very RIGHT. What makes your claim more valid than the claim of someone who lived in the American South in 1800, of the Roman who lived in 200 AD, etc.

	02-12-2002 03:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus again. slavery.

I fail to see the comparison. Perhaps you can tell me how an act of a government dealing with its own people has anything to do with the reality that States exist in an anarchic system?

	02-12-2002 03:11									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus another false argument.

No -- "another false argument" is a false argument.
Do you have any clue how logic works, Marcus? When people are giving an opinion, how can it be a "false argument"? And for that matter, what *IS* a "false argument"?

quote: Freedom is a human right, but if someone kills someone else, that freedom is taken away. Same with nations.

Freedom is therefore a privledge, if it can be taken away if you screw something up...

quote: says who? for centuries, millenia, it was very RIGHT. What makes your claim more valid than the claim of someone who lived in the American South in 1800, of the Roman who lived in 200 AD, etc.

Very good attempt to try to once again avoid the issue.

My ideals are different than the people back then. My ideals are that people should do whatever they want, provided it doesn't hurt other people. If it does hurt other people, it should be stopped.

For that reason, if a country supports terrorism, it loses its right to sovereignty.
When a person commits murder, it loses its right to sovereignty.

	02-12-2002 03:12									#35
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Slavery doesn't work with capitalism.

	02-12-2002 04:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I agree. Sadly, many Americans (and Australians apparantly) see it otherwise. (though when it comes to oposing the ICC or thing like that, the first argument both countries use is "sovereignity". Hypocrits.).

What is hypocritical? We don't deny sovereignty exists, per se. The question is how does one obtain/enforce it.

	02-12-2002 04:28									#37
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Damn I wish my prime minister would keep his mouth shut. Keeping a low profile is one of the best strategies against terrorism.

Bkeela.

	02-12-2002 04:30									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus another realpolitiking utilist until the 18/9th century, slavery has been a common practice and it worked. if all people thought the same way as you, it would never have been abolished.

Slavery still exists. Where it has been abolished, it was because economic changes and/or competing economic systems made it conceivable (or advantageous for some) to abolish it, not because of some random external idealism because it wasn't nice.

	02-12-2002 04:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Bkeela Damn I wish my prime minister would keep his mouth shut. Keeping a low profile is one of the best strategies against terrorism. Bkeela.

The best way to keep a low profile with these people is to convert to Islam and become so powerless as to pose absolutely no threat to their goals of global fundamentalist Islamism.

	02-12-2002 04:47									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Several months have passed since Bali yet the Indonesian government hasn't taken any meaningful action against Islamic terrorists.

Indonesia acted quickly after Bali in cooperation with our people. Just about all the people involved in the attack have been captured.

quote: The question now is do we let Indonesia remain a base for Islamic terrorists to attack us from or do we force them to take action?

Regional governments including Indonesia are cracking down hard on these groups. Tourism is a very important industry for them. The damage of the Bali attack runs into billions of dollars for Indonesia. They are desperate to get back to normal tourist flows.

	02-12-2002 05:02									#41
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Couldn't they have gotten better Southeast Asian leaders to comment on this? I'd love to hear what Lee Kuan Yew has to say about this; he's always good for an interesting quote. His "Australia is the new white trash of Asia" comment is a classic.

	02-12-2002 05:15									#42
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He didn't say that - he said we risked becoming that if we didn't have an open immigration policy

He's always been a friend of Australia in the region.

	02-12-2002 05:30									#43
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quote: He didn't say that - he said we risked becoming that if we didn't have an open immigration policy

True. I believe the comment was made in regard to economic policy, not immigration, but he did say that Australia risked becoming "the new white trash of Asia", not that they already were.

Still a great quote, though.

	02-12-2002 18:54									#44
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quote: For that reason, if a country supports terrorism, it loses its right to sovereignty. When a person commits murder, it loses its right to sovereignty.

I fully agree. But many nations that are discussed here, don't actively support terrorism.

	02-12-2002 19:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse He didn't say that - he said we risked becoming that if we didn't have an open immigration policy

what so you can become the new yellow trash instead?

	02-12-2002 21:51									#46
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Looking at it presented as the Age puts it...

"In a weekend interview on Channel Nine, Mr Howard said that "of course" he would intervene in a neighbouring country if terrorists there were planning to attack Australia and there was no alternative to prevent them. International law was inadequate to deal with modern national security threats and the UN charter should be amended to support pre-emption, he said."

It is entirely reasonable. Indeed, Howard would be obliged by his office to do anything that he could, with reasonable collateral risks.

Why is there so much fuss about it? Because it resembles American policy?

	02-12-2002 22:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Why is there so much fuss about it? Because it resembles American policy?

Someone picked up on it. The dirty little secret is that any credible country on the planet would be forced to act in such a circumstance. Everyone talks of soverigty and of respecting boundries but when push comes to shove it's just that, talk.

	03-12-2002 19:42									#48
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Well, John Howard shook the tree, and look at all the little acorns that came falling down.

I hope it helped the various authorities in the countries of origin of the "spokesmen".

	04-12-2002 10:55									#49
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Bravo Australia, or at least one of you.

	04-12-2002 11:46									#50
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Some really funny articles coming out from Australia's neighbors about this. This poor fellow is about to have an aneurism describing how the Australians are going to eat other Asians for breakfast or something...

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/abs_news...inion&OID=10274

The Malaysian PM has suggested Australia wants to become the SE Asia hegemon.

	04-12-2002 11:51									#51
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That statement is much more bark than bite if you consider the Australian power-projection capabilities (or rather, the lack thereof).
Very few countries are geographically threatened in any way - Indonesia and perhaps New Guinea at most.
Only real effect is in generating sound-bytes for the National press, and the other SE-Asian leaders have to know it and are just responding in kind.

	04-12-2002 12:39									#52
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Australian troops might find some help in transportation from some other interested party, if they need it...

	04-12-2002 16:58									#53
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Australian troops might find some help in transportation from some other interested party, if they need it...

Someone willing to share some of the heat for unilateral action

	04-12-2002 17:18									#54
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Howard was just trying to support the Bush doctrine.

Our neighbours are scared of us. That much is true.

By regional standards we are big and bad.

	04-12-2002 17:35									#55
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That may be true.
But, whilst we may be able to "kick ass", there's no way we could hold on to conquered territory.

There's just too many of them, and not enough of us.

In reality, there is little doubt, that if we knew such a group was present and was planning a terrorist act in Australia, the best course of action would be to catch them entering Australia - then do them in.

	04-12-2002 20:13									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Malaysian PM has suggested Australia wants to become the SE Asia hegemon.

I thought that the US and China were fighting it out for that title?

	04-12-2002 20:24									#57
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quote: Originally posted by CICSMaster In reality, there is little doubt, that if we knew such a group was present and was planning a terrorist act in Australia, the best course of action would be to catch them entering Australia - then do them in.

Like thoses several refugee smuggling ships that sank on their way to Oz?

	04-12-2002 21:07									#58
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John H wants to treat Asia the way the US has treated their own backyard?

	04-12-2002 21:23									#59
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What exactly is wrong about what he said Lars?

	04-12-2002 22:18									#60
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I would love to see Australia try this stupid little policy...

As for the people out there demaniding an end to national sovereignty to fight 'terrorism': its a two way sword. There are plenty of toehr states that might just as well challenge old US policies and state that the US, or at least certain US personel or government officials have supported Terorism in the past, and thus the US must hand over these individual or face consequences.

NOw, you hawks might state: hell, the US is stronger, let them try. And then we start having diplomats thrown out, and anti-US riots, and all sorts fo nasty little things happen. Fine, you and I won't care, but plenty of Americans, and Australians, will. Interestingly enough, the people who deman the sovereignty of these states are the biggest boosters of their own: HYPOCRITES.

"Terrorism" is a definition, not a 'thing'. You don't get to chose law, or chose rights. Devalue one, and all of them go.