01-12-2002 17:52									#1
	Asia 'outraged' At Howard's Terror Call Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiap...r.un/index.html

quote: SYDNEY, Australia -- Asian countries have reacted with outrage to calls from Australia's prime minister for pre-emptive action against terrorists operating in Southeast Asia. Howard said on Australian television Sunday that the U.N. Charter should be changed so it could be used against any threat, conventional or terrorist. Indonesia is warning against Prime Minister John Howard following through on his call, saying that Australia has no right to take military action in other countries. "Fortunately, states cannot willy-nilly flout international law and norms. We have to work within the system," Indonesian Foreign Ministry spokesman Marti Natalegawa told The Associated Press. Indonesian was not alone in criticizing Howard's remarks. "Nobody does anything like this," Thailand's government spokesman Ratthakit Manathat said. "Each country has its own sovereignty, that must be protected." Operations on Thai soil, he said, would require "highly cautious consideration." Philippine National Security Adviser Roilo Golez said governments must work together rather than one country acting unilaterally. "It's not wise and it doesn't follow ... the doctrine of peacekeeping and sovereignty," he said. "Sovereignty is not decided by fight, it's decided by right." Australia's military is one of the most powerful in the region. Howard's comments follow October's bombing in the Indonesian resort of Bali in which almost half of the 200 victims were Australian. The radical Indonesian group Jemaah Islamiyah has been blamed for the attack. Natalegawa said Jakarta understood Australia's "horrific experience" but said that "in the fight against terror, no country can act above the law and norms. The change has to be decided by the 190-odd members of the U.N. and this is not easy," The Associated Press reports. "Howard should learn to control himself," Indonesian legislator Alvin Lee told The AP. "Indonesia and Australia are both victims. I strongly support increased cooperation among neighboring countries to fight terrorism but not attacks." A spokesman for a left-wing group in the Philippines, Bayan, said his members would now protest against Australia, instead of the United States, and described Howard as a "bully." "(President Gloria Macapagal-)Arroyo would be a laughing stock if she would allow this threatening statement to pass," he said. Howard's office said his remarks were hypothetical.

quote: A spokesman for a left-wing group in the Philippines, Bayan, said his members would now protest against Australia, instead of the United States, and described Howard as a "bully."

thanks guys


It was almost funny how Indonesia talked about working within the system for peace.

	01-12-2002 17:55									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You surely know that it is against International Law to force a regime change in another country, right?

	01-12-2002 17:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Leftist this, leftist that... howard has a point... if nothing is done as now then there will be terror attacks. Indonesia's government is perhaps the most incompetent I have ever heard of. The Philippines at least is waging a war against fundamentalist islamists.

Now if some of these governments would get their acts together and actually start doing something about terror, Australia might of not made any comments like this.

	01-12-2002 18:01									#4
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You surely know that it is against International Law to force a regime change in another country, right?

I don't recall regime change mentioned in the article. Only Howard calling for the UN charter being changed. Why don't you ask an Aussie?

	01-12-2002 18:23									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Sovereignty is not decided by fight, it's decided by right.

I agree. Sadly, many Americans (and Australians apparantly) see it otherwise. (though when it comes to oposing the ICC or thing like that, the first argument both countries use is "sovereignity". Hypocrits.).

	01-12-2002 18:33									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus I agree. Sadly, many Americans (and Australians apparantly) see it otherwise. (though when it comes to oposing the ICC or thing like that, the first argument both countries use is "sovereignity". Hypocrits.).

Hypocrits, you mean like Euros negotiatiating the same kind of deals to keep themselves from IIC juristdiction that they US wanted? Lets keep this about the topic of the thread Marcus. Do you think you can do that?

All nations are hypocrits.

	01-12-2002 18:57									#7
	Got spare money?

This is imperialism, plain and simple.

	01-12-2002 19:05									#8
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sandman This is imperialism, plain and simple.

	01-12-2002 20:14									#9
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sandman This is imperialism, plain and simple.

So Sandman what would you have the Australians do? Sit by and watch the Indonesians play lip service to fighting terror while Australian citizens continue to die? Several months have passed since Bali yet the Indonesian government hasn't taken any meaningful action against Islamic terrorists.

The question now is do we let Indonesia remain a base for Islamic terrorists to attack us from or do we force them to take action? Howard's speech is a perfect example of the old carrot & stick method of diplomacy. He's saying that if the Indonesians don't start fulfilling their responsabilities then they might get the stick; and if this motivates the Indonesians into doing something positive then I say good for Howard.

	01-12-2002 20:41									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Indonesia's government is perhaps the most incompetent I have ever heard of.

Haven't you heard of Bush's regime?

	01-12-2002 20:44									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We can not sit by and allow governments to harbor terrorists and not make serious efforts to combat them. Talk about internaitonal law all you want, it always takes a backseat to national security.

	01-12-2002 20:58									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by St Leo Indonesia's government is perhaps the most incompetent I have ever heard of. Haven't you heard of Bush's regime?

I am sorry but Bush has the most competent government in the world.

Little trolls like that from little liberals.

	01-12-2002 21:01									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I am sorry but Bush has the most competent government in the world.

made my day fez, made my day

	01-12-2002 21:13									#14
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by St Leo Indonesia's government is perhaps the most incompetent I have ever heard of. Haven't you heard of Bush's regime?

You may not like his policies but you must admite he is politically astuite enough to bring home the bacon for his core constituency.

	01-12-2002 21:51									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Weakling nations that are significantly unable to control there own territory and maintain a minimum level of order are understandbly unhaapy are calls for stronger nation to get the job done or we will do it for , but insults of that nature appear to be inextricably tied to the condition of internal weakness. If you fail to deliver the stability required of a governement, your claim to sovereinty gets will get less respect.

	01-12-2002 21:55									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

When push come to shove, the sovereingty will raely be overtly violated. rather the stronger nation will use matter and powers, most commonly economic, within its legal discretion to persude or compel the appropriate permission.

	01-12-2002 22:07									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: So Sandman what would you have the Australians do? Sit by and watch the Indonesians play lip service to fighting terror while Australian citizens continue to die?

False dilemma. The best way to avoid such calamities is to stop going on holiday to unstable countries.

quote: Several months have passed since Bali yet the Indonesian government hasn't taken any meaningful action against Islamic terrorists.

The bombings took place on the 12th of October, less than two months ago. Your attempt to portray the Indonesians as laggards is unfounded. They've arrested the suspected leader, and are cooperating with over 100 Australian police officers.

quote: The question now is do we let Indonesia remain a base for Islamic terrorists to attack us from or do we force them to take action?

If arresting terrorist suspects isn't enough for you, what is? How many hoops are the Indonesians expected to jump through?

quote: Howard's speech is a perfect example of the old carrot & stick method of diplomacy. He's saying that if the Indonesians don't start fulfilling their responsabilities then they might get the stick; and if this motivates the Indonesians into doing something positive then I say good for Howard.

Might get the stick; perhaps this is a euphamism for bombing Jakarta. If so, it's not the terrorists that will be attacked, it's the Indonesian government and people. Threatening a country with over 200 million people is sure to boost the terrorists cause.

Mercifully, the article does not, like you, suggest that Indonesia should be attacked for being too slow, it suggests attacking terrorist targets which happen to be in Indonesia.

	01-12-2002 22:30									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

IIRC, the Indonesian government was repeatedly warned that al Qaida was operating in Indonesian and that local Islamic groups were cooperating. They were also warned that these groups planned attacks against Western targets Indonesia.

These warning were met with denials, not action. I beleive that the head of one of these local Islamic groups was politically influencial and attacking it could have eroded support for the government. In other words, local politics prevented action - at least until a terror act took place.

Now, if the above is correct, what would Howard propose to have done prior to Bali under a proposed new " pre-emption" doctrine? I suggest that any unilateral action may have made the political situation in Indonesia worse.

I suggest, though, that if there has been terrorist aggression launched by terrorists based in one country against another, the country attacked has a right of self defense. If the harboring country refuses to cooperate, it becomes an enemy as well.

This principle is very old in international law. It developed in connection with piracy and its suppression. The UN Charter does not have to be amended.

	01-12-2002 22:35									#19
	Tired of ads?

quote: When push come to shove, the sovereingty will raely be overtly violated.

Russia does it in Georgia.

	02-12-2002 00:53									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Every country gets terror alerts. There's one every month in America. Just a few weeks ago there was a 'warning' of a gas attack on the London Underground. They seldom come to anything. Can you blame the Indonesians for being indifferent?

	02-12-2002 01:30									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: "Sovereignty is not decided by fight, it's decided by right."

History and reality seems to disagree with the Philippine National Security Adviser.

I don't think that the UN Charter's prohibition on the use of force carries much legal weight anyway.

	02-12-2002 01:49									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: History and reality seems to disagree with the Philippine National Security Adviser.

History and reality show a lot of things. That doesn't mean it's all right.

	02-12-2002 01:54									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus History and reality show a lot of things. That doesn't mean it's all right.

This is a joke, right?
Historically, if something always works out a certain way, it's a good guess that it's more "right" than the fantasy someone spews out which isn'tbased in reality.

	02-12-2002 02:25									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You surely know that it is against International Law to force a regime change in another country, right?

I assume this would apply to Taiwan and Tibet also?

Let's first come up with a working definition of "regime" and "country"

Just because some murdering ******* shoots his way into power and keeps it by force, over some chunk of real estate, doesn't mean he's suddenly entitled to "rights."

	02-12-2002 02:45									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: This is a joke, right? Historically, if something always works out a certain way, it's a good guess that it's more "right" than the fantasy someone spews out which isn'tbased in reality.

another realpolitiking utilist

until the 18/9th century, slavery has been a common practice and it worked. if all people thought the same way as you, it would never have been abolished.

	02-12-2002 02:48									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sandman Every country gets terror alerts. There's one every month in America. Just a few weeks ago there was a 'warning' of a gas attack on the London Underground. They seldom come to anything. Can you blame the Indonesians for being indifferent?

Yes, we can. And do

Before the Bali attack, Indonesia either denied, refuted, or just plain ignored anything told them by Australia. Being ultimately right gives no satisfaction when hundreds of innocent people die in proving it

	02-12-2002 02:49									#27
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus another realpolitiking utilist until the 18/9th century, slavery has been a common practice and it worked. if all people thought the same way as you, it would never have been abolished.

Not true, slavery certainly did not work because it trampled on human rights.

I'm not saying what's common practice is right, but we can learn from previous mistakes and correct them.

Like World War II appeasement...sitting and twiddling your thumbs only works for so long. It's the easy way out, and history has shown it's a crap plan.

	02-12-2002 02:58									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Not true, slavery certainly did not work because it trampled on human rights.

human rights? if you can claim that than I can claim that sovereignity is a nation's right that others can't trample on.

Also, it's different what you said.

You said: Historically, if something always works out a certain way, it's a good guess that it's more "right" than the fantasy someone spews out which isn'tbased in reality.

one can make the same claim about slavery. It has always worked a certain way, and therefor it's a good guess that it's more "right" than the fantasy someone (for instance, and abolitionist) spews out which isn't based in reality.

Stop fezzing, and take a stand. You clearly said that things that have always worked a certain way are more right than fantasies. If that is so it applies to slavery, the American independence and rights of nations alike. You can either back up that claim, or you can admit you're wrong. Don't start twisting your own words. I know you're a better debater than that.

	02-12-2002 03:02									#29
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus History and reality show a lot of things. That doesn't mean it's all right.

I like utopian visions as much as the next person but some of us prefer to deal with the real world.

	02-12-2002 03:03									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus human rights? if you can claim that than I can claim that sovereignity is a nation's right that others can't trample on.

I don't think that a nation has an absolute right to sovereignty. If a country began ethnic cleansing, do you still think you can watch from the sidelines and shrug and say "It's their sovereign country, none of my concern?"

quote: You said: Historically, if something always works out a certain way, it's a good guess that it's more "right" than the fantasy someone spews out which isn'tbased in reality. one can make the same claim about slavery. It has always worked a certain way, and therefor it's a good guess that it's more "right" than the fantasy someone (for instance, and abolitionist) spews out which isn't based in reality.

Slavery has certainly not always worked.
You're taking my position to be the absolute status quo, and it's not. You're misinterpreting what I said intentionally or unintentionally, repeatedly.

My comment is made in the scope of foreign relations. We've learned in the past that if we don't do anything, things can happen. Look at Rwanda, look at World War 2, etc.

Slavery is a different beast. It's just not RIGHT. You can claim that it's not right to "invade a country's sovereignty", but as far as I'm concerned, if that country's sovereignty tramples on human rights and supports terrorism they lost that right.

International sovereignty is a privledge, not a right, in the global community.

quote: Stop fezzing, and take a stand. You clearly said that things that have always worked a certain way are more right than fantasies. If that is so it applies to slavery, the American independence and rights of nations alike. You can either back up that claim, or you can admit you're wrong. Don't start twisting your own words. I know you're a better debater than that.

You're the one twisting my words... I'm talking about foreign relations and you start going on and on about slavery.

What I meant by, and perhaps wasn't clear enough, was that we can learn from our past mistakes in foreign relations. So you can knock it off by flogging the dead horse by taking my comment and generalizing it to everything under the sun in a desperate last ditch attempt to avoid discussing the real issue...