01-12-2002 22:50									#1
	Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Alpha Offices Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Welcome to the Lux Invicta Ministry of Foreign Affairs-

Modus Operandi (how we work in this forum) :
Forum name :- Its a general title, and encompasses espionage , diplomacy and trades, cultural religion.
These separate compartments can be split among other forums.
This is the Alpha Office - the FIRST Office (using the Greek alphabet - Alpha for A)

We need to work together to organise a command and admin structure for Foreign Affairs, I'm not fuly certain what roles this ministry will control as yet.
I see our first agenda task as creating Advisors to the Foreign Office.
It may be best for people to nominate themselves for roles, and Ministers will decide who to hire or fire.

In my opinion- It should be a proviso , or rule, that everyone gets a chance at the different jobs in all our government, unless they can be shown to be inept in some areas.
Trip will always be the main leader of our team of course, but in the democratic spirit of this project each role should be changed on the 3 week rota basis.

	02-12-2002 00:05									#2
	Lux Invicta 4000bc Plan of Diplomacy Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Continued:

Culture: Maybe foreign affairs should work with the Interior minister in relation to culture.. as foreign culture plays a large role.

Millitary: I need to talk with the Millitary Minister closely, discussing foreign millitary intelligence, and wether we can go to war or call for peace etc.
If all ministers agree to war then it could be put to vote to the entire group.

Other Foreign Duties:


My proposals for the 4000bc start game :

1.Try to contact any civs we can, especially nearby ones which pose the most threat. (and also most means for exploitation) We could build some outposts in exterior areas to spot foreign civs (also good for alerting us to barbarian incursions) depending on their cost.

2.If any Civs are contacted, assign them an Ambassador (like diplomats , but we don't have embassies yet).
I'll be the ambassador for first contact , for the first civ.
See Bottom of article.

3.Try to research Writing soon for embassies.. I suggest going for Literacy too, as we get nice Cheap Libraries(cheaper than temples) and they give us some good culture. Map making will be useful also, for Trading Maps(though we'd need a close aliance for this to be considered for use) and Ships would help contact forigen civs and find resources etc much faster.
The Above is dependant on our strategic situation. (what are game status is)

4.Millitary would be much appreciated if they would help find foreign Tribe Huts, where we hope to get New maps and sciences , they might also get to train their spearheads on some savage barbarian tribes.

5.Build up our gold reserves, we will need money to bribe and cajole other teams, or to make embassies and buy techs.

6.Make Embassies. Needed for ROP and Alliances, but mainly for Diplomatic espionage functions. Useful for Comms and Map trading . Need to do more work on when we need embassies..

7. Scout out luxuries and resources on the map, for trading as well as our own use.

8.Build Road networks and harbors to create trade routes.. Foreign trade will be important , luxuries can be traded for science and money, though we don't want enemies to have too many Lux's. We can control other civs if we control their strategic resources, we could get one to make war with our enemies and pay them with resources, but we would let them take the brunt of the casualites, and stay on the defensive mostly. (have to be careful not to let them conquer all the enemy on their own though.. or we get into a Cold war situation)

DIPLOMACY:
I will try to keep friendly at first with foreigners, until we have enough millitary to raid them.. unless they show they have some other use.

Alliances: It may be of use to try and form an alliance with another Civ Team, although Rights Of Passage treaties should be used with great care (they can march an army upto our capital and obliterate it with a surprise attack bonus)
We would be a lot stronger with an ally in millitary terms, and especially scientific terms (though we would try to be the dominating partner in any alliance). If possible we could weaken our allies using espionage , though we can't let them be suspiscous.

Multiplayer Alliances can be great for science.. both teams research different sciences and therefore double eachs research power. The trick is to stop science sharing when your 'partners' desire an important tech.. though this could result in a diplomatic incident - they might get pissed off.
Alliances are great for attacking enemies too, and help to prevent your civ being ganged up on .. its better to make an alliance early before others make alliances against you.

TECH TRADING:
Hopefully we'll be able to acquire techs from other Civs, I assume the price of techs will be decided solely on the teams involved (PTW dosen't restrict price deals, like how the AI's buy things?) . It will be more attractive for the enemy to trade Techs for Techs, though we should try and limit their tech research.
I think we shuld try and research Republic, and Not worry about monarchy (unless we obtain extra sciences)
Libraries will be better than Temples, and The Oracle is much less effective than the Sistine Chapel or Bachs - So we maybe could forget about getting Ceremonial, Mysticism and Polytheism, Monarchy Techs till near the end of the Ancient Times.. though if we can get a good deal to acquire this, it will be useful.
Monarchies Police powers would be useful, but Despotism is just as good for that(and gives more free support under despot).
Warrior code will be needed for Horseback.. I agree we need The wheel early, as well as iron working.

With the Ottomans , we are well on our way to Construction, which needs the important alphabet too, I think we shuld aim for construction soon, when our cities begin needing aquaducts.. colliseums would be useful if we do Go Republic soon and Forts will be useful for defence(their ZOC can be useful later.. against cavalry etc)

Please discuss any details , especially my ideas you disagree with or new ideas and issues i've forgotten.

This thread is just a starter .. we can work out foreign sub advisors As Soon As Possible.

--
AdmiralPJ
Spies will be dealt with severely!

	02-12-2002 09:13									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Don't forget, we should also play mind games w/ our enemies. Diplomats should always attempt to seek our peace proposal even during midst of war. Good diplomat should make the other team feel as if he is not a diplomat representing lux, but rather their own agent that is on their side. Always create an image that you did your best to talk down the people of lux and created a better deal for them. Make it look like a mob rule has taken over and caused the war, not the government. Perhaps then, the other team will not harbor as long a resentment.

Spread propaganda. Make the guy next to me eviler, and our opponents will go for his throat not ours. Make us look more friendlier neighbor and most likely our neighbors will come to us first whenever they have something worth trading.

	02-12-2002 09:18									#4
	Got spare money?

I agree with Calc. Oddly enough, a person with the personality you appeared to possess during the chat today seems perfect for making the other team think he is on their side. Play good cop/bad cop with Trip He'll demand something outrageous, then generously request something less

	02-12-2002 15:00									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 a person with the personality you appeared to possess during the chat today seems perfect for making the other team think he is on their side.

I think this is one of the most important qualities of a Foreign Minister.

	03-12-2002 00:50									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If what happened with the first turn is rectified, then I'm wholeheartedly with you on the intimate communication thing.

Also, I think rotating positions among active team mates is a good idea...as head of the Military, though...hehe

Errr...seriously, it's more fun if you can get these communications issues settled up front.

	03-12-2002 01:45									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 I agree with Calc. Oddly enough, a person with the personality you appeared to possess during the chat today seems perfect for making the other team think he is on their side. Play good cop/bad cop with Trip He'll demand something outrageous, then generously request something less

I'm the master of manipulation of the enemy by any and all means.

	03-12-2002 12:47									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I wouldn't mind being an ambassador for another civ.

	03-12-2002 14:08									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sounds good.

Now all we need is another team to have an ambassador for.

	03-12-2002 16:39									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Trip Sounds good. Now all we need is another team to have an ambassador for.

Maybe we find one before summer

	03-12-2002 17:53									#11
	Suffering from ads?

When is the next turn to be done?

	03-12-2002 18:02									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I got a task for you ( :-) ): check out the F11 screen in our save game and see which civs established a city and which ones decided to move their settler.

	03-12-2002 18:13									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

For me? I'll need to find the save file first...but once I do, that should be no problem.

	04-12-2002 01:54									#14
	How to send saves to the next team Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've been contacted by a Legoland agent, and though I was tempted to melt the legoman, I pretended to be friendly,
When sending our save to Legoland , they requested we email it to both

Jack_www: wewon2002@hotmail.com
and
Vondrack: vondrack@jimaz.cz

Vondrack is their main gameplayer right now, jack their reserve.

GoW has the save now I believe.



That is all.

	04-12-2002 04:41									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thanks.

Now check the F11 screen like he said.

	04-12-2002 10:48									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Besides lego land (the went after us) the following have cities:
Spanish
Warmongers
Demogypts
Voxians

This leaves:
Us
legoland (at that save haven't gone yet)
Gathering Storm

	04-12-2002 20:31									#17
	Tired of ads?

I'm glad we have a quick-witted foreing intellegence operation fully underway j/k

	04-12-2002 23:33									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It was probably expected that most of them would have built cities... it's doubtful that most civs will get a starting position as good as we got, so things will counter-balance in the end (until we take over ).

	07-12-2002 02:42									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

We may be able to gain a little info from teams before contact, if we agree to any alliances.. Calc,mesh and me may start a thread on that subject in the pub forum.

I think Mesh's team may be in trouble getting a start position.. I heard NYE's team were stuck in a terrible jungle start. (edit) Mesh just denied this, saying that was another game they were talking about not the PTW apolyton game.
Of course.. you can never trust anyone too fully, always hostage something of the others, like a small town.

(above repeated in vox controlli save mistake forum)

I say Mesh's team are in trouble, as they seem desparate for an alliance with us (they're the ex Trash Trips Arse people, now Kiss Trips arse, as Trip eloquently put it)
They also wanted to swap minimaps with us, probably to make contact or make a city near us toget help, though this may be a ploy to make war on us early, and piss off Trip heh.


I'm Uploading the log Mesh and me made from our IRC chat, I commited us to thinking about an alliance with them, but along with trip agree it depends on game status and geography especially.
I'm trying to put it on the website, lux.aomgamer.com
will be uploaded in a couple hours, after dinner.

Admiral PJ - Forn minister.
Trust No one, not even your pets.

	07-12-2002 07:33									#20
	Suffering from ads?

slight problem uploading that log,
basically GS (meshelic) and I agreed to a possible close trade alliance, possibly heading to a millitary alliance, though they weren't clear about that.

Apoc is going to be ambassador to Vox and assistant ambassador to Legoland, as he has contacts in those organisations.
Calc looks like a possible ambassador to GS, though maybe he's TOO close to them but theres a lot to be said for friendly foreign relations.

It appears GS are a little Hot or cold at the moment on how far they would ally with us (probably not all totally agreed, but mesh and NYE seem pro LI ) , but if a few of us agree to more alliance talks then we can have talks with GS (ministers and some ambassadors etc).. like a formal alliance conference, such as is done at peace deal pacts.

I've said to GS we would be interested in science pacts, and would cooperate with any allies, prefering to make alliances than just have a total war strategy.. They appear to be similar andthink both teams could coexist, (though at some point we could betray them.. claiming they were mountaining espionage or working with other teams against us)

They may just be looking fora scientific civ to give them a couple of free techs, but whatever situation we can use them to our advantage.. and friendship can be fun too.
Millitary alliances are different, and they don't seem prepared to share maps.. but ideally in mil.alliances our allies would fight the wars and take the casualites, while we act as reserves, making elite troops easily from the few remaining enemies, and we also capture the cities our allies softened.

I think its about sleeping time.. i'll try using an ftp program (not internet explorer) to upload the log file this time.

	07-12-2002 07:52									#21
	formal Meshelic minister to AdmiralPJ minister meeting lognotes Inflate your Upload Space

MIRC chat program chat on apolyton.net IRC chat server.
Official Recording Follows (realpolitik speak)
--

Session Start: Fri Dec 06 01:30:51 2002
Session Ident: Meshelic
Session Ident: Meshelic (~mirroj@elltel-dsl-p408.elltel.net)
I am currently posting some of the comments you and calc have made to my team, regarding maps, navigational directions, and the royal marriage. sound ok?
hello
hey
yeah, I think i'll post a small post to my team too
trip finished our third turn today i think
Foreign Minister to Foreign Minister, I would like to see our two nations work together as brothers
I agree, hopefully we can get our followers to think likewise
Overall, what do you think the Lux Invicticans opinion of the GS is?
We respect your culture , but have little contact with you
whats your main objectives?
We seek a strong economy that helps boost our science, strong military to protect our interests
and seek friends among the other nations so we will not fight any two-front, three-front wars
I'm sure we can restrain trips aggresive streak .. and forget that business about trashing his arse
We don't activiely seek war peresay
Do you know our strategy mantra?
no I do not
?
Well, so far we ..
we are happy to go to war if it is in us and our allies interests,
we seek the best for Luxia that we can get, including making allies, making money and research
I would say we are similar in that aspect
We too seek friendly relations, an ally for mutual defense, a trading partner, and to be strong economically and militarily.
I've wanted to find an ally for a while,
I think it will greatly benefit both our scientific interests,
one side researching something while the other researches the second prerquisite..
then swapping, eh?

yeah.. swapping too of course
LI is generous to those who are behind its cause
I have posted in my team's private forum these things we are discussing
We are very cautious however.
ok I will fill in my team too
We don't seek to be double-crossed
well, we can discuss treaties, for insurance
my hope is that you are not pulling the wool over my eyes
and I am sure you feel the same
yes, perhaps we can trade technoliges and maps to show mutual loyalty
You realize that should the things we are discussing here become true, then it is surely a great moment in the histories of our two nations.
it willtake time for our full trust to be won.. but when it is we will be as brothers under the same flag
I agree, trust is a difficult thing to gain, and it takes time MORE SO than specific deals
We would look forward to such a historic moment, it would be both of our Nations greatest achievements
true.
Would you mind if I copied the log file of this chat to show to my team?
Hopefully we can make a pact, but first we need to get rid of any doubters in our teams
Ok, sure
I cannot speak for my entire team , we will need thorough negotiations
but as foreign minister i have some sway in this matter
I cannot speak for my entire team either. There will be much to discuss here, regarding the negotiations that the GS and LI may have to go through to reach an alliance-like state
geography may play a part in our decision, so we may wish to know the world status before rushing into any deals
but we have 2 LI's who are happy for an alliance out of 13 or so :>
I would say that is one of the crucial things to think over, geography.
Defensively a close distance would be ideal
there are those in the GS who also would like a partner
I agree
Would GS consider having some cities placed near it for mutual defence and cultural help?
Placing cities in each others lands could be a way to show loyalty..
I cannot answer that question.
unfortunately.
I would have to discuss that with the rest of my team.
They will see the log file
Its just an idea,
I will mention it to them,
sounds like a good idea, but every idea has it's own ramifications
and if you LI's are far out there, it may not be in either of our interests to do so
But we would respect your wishes, and try to cooperate with any wishes should the alliance be solidified.
As would we
We have much to learn from each other, and much to discuss. We will have to meet back again once we have discussed these things with our teams.
* AdmiralPJ shakes meshelics hand, I hope we can have a profitable business
* Meshelic returns the handshake
a profitable business agreement soon
that is
yes hopefully.
I agree,
maybe you'd like to talk with Trip too
if he's not whipping the slaves
Perhaps this would be a good idea
i'll put the log in LI's channel too, ok?
ok that is fine.
hold on a second let me check something really quick
okay here's my idea
yes?
Perhaps we can set up a meeting between the leaders of our two civs
Trip, Calc and You meet NYE, Dominae and myself
in a private chat somehow in the next week
possibly, though we don't know about map swaps yet
yes, a private chat would be good for me
that's true, a week may be good for us to mutually decide what to do
both of us
i think trips still away
hmmm
whether we have reached a decision or not regarding our alliance, it would be wise to have the two ambassadors and the leader from each nation to meet in a private chat somewhere
We'll make a final decision about who our representative ambassador will be for you,
calc is in the running and isclosely involved
Yes, I'll propose that to LI,
you should talk to Trip about this too, if he comes back
either way, having 3 reps from each team in this "private chat" would be good
We might be able to get all our ministers involved hopefully, war, interior and Trip the leader
that would work.
its possible to have private chats on this chat server, by setting up a channel
Yes the GS have a similar thing
I agree to the alliance talks
As do I.
I'm going to close this chat so I can save the log and post it. Sound ok?
I'll PM you when my teams made its decisions
good, I will either have Dominae PM you or I will do so myself.
ok, PM me if you have any developments
ok

* Meshelic shakes AdmiralPJ's hand once again. "Looking forward to it."
Ok, great.. I think calc can help us too
* AdmiralPJ gives mesh a LI medal for a gift
* AdmiralPJ returns the handshake
Wow a medal for me??
ooh trips at his computer
want to speak to him?
Let's close this chat and begin a new one.
ok
i've logged it too



As you see meshelic is a bit of a roleplayer, (not the team) but he seems trustworthy, but we shouldn't let them find out info that would give them any advantages.

BTW nice chat with firaxis this friday talked a lot with Soren johnson who arrived late.