03-12-2002 03:24									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Regent... hmm, research is gonna fly. -Arrian

although, for some of us (i.e. Me) it'll just seem like normal.

	03-12-2002 04:19									#32
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I checked the editor, and Regent is still just two citizens born content, same as Monarch. Warlord is three and Chieftain is four.

If it weren't for disease and the existence of potentially hostile neighbors, I'd go for the flood plains in a heartbeat. It costs production in the short term, but you get it back in the long term. But early exploration and defense are more important in this game than they would be in SP, and in the unlikely event that we would happen to get unlucky with disease right off the bat, it could be crippling with just one city. After we build our first settler (or maybe as we're finishing on it), the risk would be lower.

This is not a situation where we want to use a combination of flood plains and forest because under Despotism, we can get just as much production from furs on irrigated plains as we can from furs on forest. We need to be chopping and irrigating before we use those tiles (at least to the extent that we can keep up).

I'm not too fond of the idea of an early temple. It only pays for its upkeep by avoiding happiness problems when we're at size four or higher (once we get our furs hooked up), and even then, using the luxury slider is just as cost-efficient. Further, with all these furs, the capital will almost certainly get the most benefit from the luxury slider of any city when we do use it. I think we're better off with an early barracks in our capital and focusing our early temples on other cities where they are needed to expand the city radius.

Nathan

	03-12-2002 06:56									#33
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1) The start is even better than we initially thought.

2) Industrious rocks.

3) The talent here is scary.

	03-12-2002 07:06									#34
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What about the start are you thinking is better than initially thought?

	03-12-2002 07:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I checked the editor, and Regent is still just two citizens born content, same as Monarch. Warlord is three and Chieftain is four.

I think I've played Regent once, and Monarch under 10 times (I never even tried anything lower than Regent). So I just assumed that the "citizens born content" increases by 1 for every step down in difficulty. Thanks for pointing this out.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If it weren't for disease and the existence of potentially hostile neighbors, I'd go for the flood plains in a heartbeat. It costs production in the short term, but you get it back in the long term. But early exploration and defense are more important in this game than they would be in SP, and in the unlikely event that we would happen to get unlucky with disease right off the bat, it could be crippling with just one city. After we build our first settler (or maybe as we're finishing on it), the risk would be lower.

Very nice reasoning. This (and DeepO's comment about balanced starts...and, come to think of it, alexman and Arrian's turn by turn "forecast") makes me feel very confident about our Economic Schola (let's just say it was a very hard Schola not to pick!). I like the "no preconceptions" idea though, so expect me to jump in with some overlooked ideas once in a while.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I'm not too fond of the idea of an early temple.

I agree. I think we'd be in a much stronger position with either more troops, better troops (with a Barracks), and more Settlers (hopefully all three). There's still plenty of time to build a Temple after a few Settlers are out, and we won't miss out on too much culture.


Dominae

	03-12-2002 08:02									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus 1) The start is even better than we initially thought. 2) Industrious rocks. 3) The talent here is scary.

I discussed the talent issue with Panzer32 and a couple of other diplomats on the Apolyton chat (purely unnoficial, as it was a surprise so many foreign ministers were there all of a sudden). From the talks I had there, I gathered from the others there that we are :

1.) VERY intimidating
2.) thought to be likely game winner
3.) probably superior in most aspects of the game

Either we should be wary that the others may gang up on us if they are too intimidated, or we should take advantage of their fears?

	03-12-2002 08:09									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Either we should be wary that the others may gang up on us if they are too intimidated, or we should take advantage of their fears?

Playing with people's fears is playing with fire. We need to make sure there is no ganging up against us going on as long as diplomatically possible. Even with all our talent, there is simply no way we can handle a human alliance against us, especially if we're all on the same continent. Maybe we should start a discussion in the Diplomcay Schola on how best to reduce other teams' fears of our "superiority".


Dominae

	03-12-2002 09:19									#38
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Couldn't agree more... we can't fight everyone, and need to allay any fears that could put us in that position.

nbarclay, re the starting position, maybe it's just me but I had never bought into the power of plains + bonus resource... throw in the diversity of tiles, and I'm pretty happy with what we've gotten.

	03-12-2002 09:37									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Couldn't agree more... we can't fight everyone, and need to allay any fears that could put us in that position. nbarclay, re the starting position, maybe it's just me but I had never bought into the power of plains + bonus resource... throw in the diversity of tiles, and I'm pretty happy with what we've gotten.

As long as there's water to irrigate, I tend to view plains and regular grassland as essentially interchangeable in the early game. Either way, under Despotism, the result tends to be two food and one shield. And really, furs aren't anything more than a grassland with shield with an extra gold that you have to chop down a forest to get to. Flood plains are better than nothing for speeding up growth, but cattle, wheat, or game (after some chopping) can provide equal food and some production besides, or can (if irrigated) provide more food. Forests, I look at mostly as potential grassland or plains where I can get some shields chopping along the way. In short, while this certainly isn't a bad start, it's not one I consider great either, unless there's something I'm missing.

	03-12-2002 09:42									#40
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Oh, I guess you're right... not fantastic (e.g., cattle or wheat), but I was deathly afraid of a jungle / mountain / tundra nightmare. I guess what I do really like is the diversity, although I'd trade Nationalism for some hills.

Spoilsport.

	03-12-2002 09:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Spoilsport.

Sorry about the bubble-bursting, but we do need to be aware of the possibility that a neighbor might have a significantly better starting position than we do (assuming they use it correctly). Of course it's equally possible that a neighbor might have significantly worse, or one neighbor one and the other neighbor the other (if we have two neighbors). We'll just have to watch and see what we can find out.

	03-12-2002 10:38									#42
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You are still a spoilsport.

Glory in the GS homeland!!

	03-12-2002 10:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Oh, I guess you're right... not fantastic (e.g., cattle or wheat), but I was deathly afraid of a jungle / mountain / tundra nightmare. I guess what I do really like is the diversity, although I'd trade Nationalism for some hills.

After our test PBEM you can say that 52,000 times.

	03-12-2002 15:24									#44
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To better put things in perspective, the views of Panzer32 and Spiffor seemed to sway towards thinking we were possibly too talented. They did not suggest to me that they were threatened by this.

Besides, I made sure we were talking along "unofficial lines" and we all acknowledged that we weren't really speaking for our teams, just personal observations. I told them as well that I was impressed by all the talent on the teams, and hoped that things could get more organized.

	03-12-2002 17:03									#45
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Re: early temple: You all know I'm a proponent of culture, so naturally I'm all for an early temple (and certainly if most of it can be build with forest chopping), but now there is another argument why we maybe need it: If we build it, our culture will rock, and likely be better then any other team (even the builders), for a long time. Which enhances the idea that we are a builder, or at least a balanced team, and not pure warmongers. Deception is everything, so I would definately build the temple asap.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 17:47									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Re: early temple: You all know I'm a proponent of culture, so naturally I'm all for an early temple (and certainly if most of it can be build with forest chopping), but now there is another argument why we maybe need it: If we build it, our culture will rock, and likely be better then any other team (even the builders), for a long time. Which enhances the idea that we are a builder, or at least a balanced team, and not pure warmongers. Deception is everything, so I would definately build the temple asap.

You wouldn't look at all that culture and wonder if we might be thinking ahead to preventing culture flips when we attack? Maybe your mind isn't as devious as mine is.

With Glory of War in the game playing a civ that can build archers right off the bat, and with us not starting with Bronze Working to build spearmen and not having AIs to buy it from guaranteed if we meet their price, my instinct is that an early barracks is more important than an early temple. Still, it might make sense to game things out in a "clone" single-player game as the time for the final decision approaches to make sure we'll be building enough units in the capital to justify the barracks. If we'd go for a fairly early granary in the capital (a definite possibility if Arabia is a neighbor and is amenable to trading), shields rather than food would be the limiting factor on our settler production capacity, in which case barracks might just sit there eating up gold without really doing us much good.

Nathan

	03-12-2002 18:27									#47
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By all means, let us build an early granary. More citizens equals faster production, more commerce (we can make full use of that river to research faster) and more workers/settlers.
If we want to grab as much land before the other civs do, we need a large population base.

	03-12-2002 18:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber By all means, let us build an early granary. More citizens equals faster production, more commerce (we can make full use of that river to research faster) and more workers/settlers. If we want to grab as much land before the other civs do, we need a large population base.

The catch is that it takes time to research Pottery, and we need to focus on military techs until we have The Wheel and Bronze Working (or establish that there aren't any hostiles around). So it will be a while before we can start planning granaries unless we can trade for Pottery (although trading for Bronze Working could put as a bit ahead of if we have to research it ourselves).

	03-12-2002 19:13									#49
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You're right. What was I thinking?
A granary as soon as we can build one, but right now we should build barracks IMHO. We don't really need a temple in regent so early, and culture's effect on human psychology is debatable.

	03-12-2002 20:42									#50
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Nathan, I know about the culture flips, of course, however I don't know if other teams are going to see it like that. Especially the less experienced teams like Vox, and possibly the legos, could view it as a sign of a builder approach.

Re: the barracks: You are right, in that it has fewer advantage when you don't intend to build a lot of troops there. In most of my SP games, I never built it in the capital, or I'm planning on a archer rush and need the production. Of course, this is MP, and I would focus on BW immediately. But then again, if it takes us 40 turns before we can build spears, wouldn't that mean that we can already have a temple, and a settler build, and queue a baracks somewhere around turn 35?

Granaries: I won't comment much on these. I don't build them often, certainly not in my capital. But in this case, I can see the point in doing so, however it doesn't feel right to start on granaries before at least 1 settler has been built. It takes quite a number of turns before you can buil more settlers with a granary then you would have had without them, certainly if you take into account that the first settlers can have build cities, which are also already building settlers before your granary has finished. I would only decide this once we have a better idea of the situation around us, and whether we need to have a few cities fast, or can start slower, and catch up later on.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 21:50									#51
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If we pop pottery from a hut, we should definitely invest in a granary.

But for now, I like the barracks plan. DeepO, I ran a test (using NYE's scenario of our start spot) that involved the following build order:

warrior
warrior (chop assisted)
warrior
barracks (chop assisted)
settler
spearman (chop assisted)
settler

Note the spearman. BW would take us 27 turns to research from the start, and could be faster if we jacked the science rate, I believe. Actually, since I mistakenly set the scenario to Monarch (IIRC, the PTW Demogame is Regent), it could be even faster.

But it seems you and I are in the minority on choosing BW at the start - it looks like we're going with The Wheel.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 21:59									#52
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The weel it is, then. A bit riskier perhaps, but seeing horsies early on will certainly be a bonus.

Arrian, in your test, did the settler got built in the fastest possible turn? we're already 1 turn behind because of the movement of our settler, I wouldn't like it if we lose more time. Other then that it seems to be ok for me...

DeepO

	03-12-2002 22:11									#53
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No, but the alternative is wasting either shields or worker turns. Our second settler gets pumped out pretty fast, though, due to the irrigated floodplains plus the irrigated furs.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 22:26									#54
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Hmm... I'd rather waste some shields or worker turns, if it means you only lose a few shields, or 1-2 worker turns. Especially letting the worker wait seems good to me, but then again, I do that a lot in SP games too.

I'm going to look at your detailed plan to see if I can comment there...

DeepO

	03-12-2002 22:32									#55
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*sigh* Can someone explain why I get DPs when I only hit the submit button once? Strangely enough, more traffic leads to more posts on 'poly

DP edited out.

DeepO

Last edited by DeepO on 03-12-2002 at 23:02

	03-12-2002 22:37									#56
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DeepO, my plan isn't perfect, alexman actually pointed out one or two places where it can be improved upon, but I think it will work rather well. 3 quick exploring warriors, a barracks for vet troops later, and then settlers will come quickly.

I have come to realize that punching out a settler IMMEDIATELY isn't always such a big deal. In fact, we may even get lucky with a hut early on this way. Who knows?

-Arrian.

	03-12-2002 22:55									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I have come to realize that punching out a settler IMMEDIATELY isn't always such a big deal. In fact, we may even get lucky with a hut early on this way. Who knows?

Strange... this is completely the opposite of my experiences. That second city build time has become crucial to me, and I will sacrifice all I can to be fast. With industrial civs this means that the first worker (after some improving along the capital) roads to the city spot immediately, so that it will take at most 1 turn between building the settler and settling it.

As to the hut-popping: I've had much more luck with popping settlers due to something I already knew, but overlooked: in 1.28f you won't get a settler if you are either building one in any of your cities, or if you have one active. Just avoiding popping huts with an active settler, and switching all settler production to something else just to pop a hut has proven very useful, now I get an average of 1 settler per game on a huge map on Emperor, where I used to get 1 settler each 10 games or so. Definately some tweaking we have to do!

DeepO

	03-12-2002 23:08									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I have come to realize that punching out a settler IMMEDIATELY isn't always such a big deal.

The chances that we do get a Settler from a hut are low (as we all know from SP games). Thus we need to show that having more units and stuff in our capital is better than having 2 cities. Other than the fear of not being able to defend two areas at once, I can't think of a good reason to delay Settler production.


Dominae

	03-12-2002 23:24									#59
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It's not much of a delay. I will have a look at the sequencing, though. I agree that expanding quickly is important, I was just trying to be as efficient as possible given the position of our worker on Turn2, when we will build our city.

DeepO, regarding the hut popping for settlers thing, I know about that. It has resulted in a noticeable jump in the number of times I get a settler from a hut. And I play on normal size maps.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 23:29									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian DeepO, regarding the hut popping for settlers thing, I know about that. It has resulted in a noticeable jump in the number of times I get a settler from a hut. And I play on normal size maps.

Well, most of us will know this, I just wanted to say it out loud because maybe someone overlooks it. AFAIK, it is not common knowledge to all Civ players, even if it has been posted on the strategy forum.

DeepO