02-12-2002 03:39									#1
	first turn conclusions Put an end to popups!

ok, you specialists, what can we make from our starting position

We agree, it's a good one, but is there more???

I can think of one, namely;

It's pretty unlikely we are boxed-in by other civs.

any thoughts?

	02-12-2002 03:43									#2
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We have a good assortment of various tiles. Grasslands, plains, rivers, forests, desert. We have a lot of variety there, so that's a major relief. We aren't stuck in a large desert, or in a large tundra plain. I'm pretty relieved about our start.

	02-12-2002 04:02									#3
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That's an awful lot of plains... I predict horses to the SW of our capitol.

I believe the river indicates that there will be hills and / or mountains to the NW.

There will probably be some desert to the north, and if the island is big enough I would expect a jungle barrier on an E/W axis.

There *should* be more grassland to the south and west of us, depending on how nearby the coastline is.

	02-12-2002 04:10									#4
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We should explore up and down the river as priorities.

	02-12-2002 04:15									#5
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I agree, for the added reason that we'd probably want to found our next city somewhere upstream.

	02-12-2002 04:19									#6
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I'm also looking at that plains tile at the mouth of the river. The one on the far bank from Eye of the Storm. Perfect positioning according to our city plans, maybe...

	02-12-2002 04:43									#7
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... except for crossing the river.

	02-12-2002 04:49									#8
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agree, we shouldn't cross the river yet.
How about sending a warrior to that mountain?

	02-12-2002 04:51									#9
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* FrustratedPoet hopes he doesn't look stupid for asking this

why shouldn't we cross the river?

* FrustratedPoet thinks he probably looked stupid

	02-12-2002 04:58									#10
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Furs rock as a luxury resource, what with the extra shield. We chop, irrigate, road the plains ones and chop, mine, road the grassland one, and we're in business.

Too early to draw any big conclusions, but I'm more than relieved.

-Arrian

	02-12-2002 05:00									#11
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@fp;
movement points is my thinking behind it

	02-12-2002 05:01									#12
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i still don't see the problem.

the settler only has 1 movement point, he can't get any slower than that.

	02-12-2002 05:05									#13
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Well, it would be 1 turn into the capitol from there. 2 turns from capitol to there. The tile on the near bank is dead to the capitol. Building a city in that tile would crowd the capitol greatly. btw, most of the city sites on the far bank will be either too close to the capitol, or 2 turns movement from the capitol.

We will have to spread things out to mutiple turns movement in some cases. That problem goes away with Engineering.

Oh well, we shall see. Too early for firm decisions.

	02-12-2002 05:53									#14
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It seems there's an assumption that we start clearing forest on the next move... don;t we have a little 'balance' problem though?

Either NO shields other than from the capitol, or not enough food from one of the fox/forest tiles.

(Where's cracker when you need him? )

	02-12-2002 05:58									#15
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If we clear (5 turns) then irrigate (2 turns) the tile will be ready for our 2nd worker, and be very productive indeed. 2/2/2.

Then the worker can cross over and mine the grass.

The shields we lose for not mining the grass right off are more than made up for by the forest clearing (for 10 shields).

Good plan?

	02-12-2002 06:23									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

That depends on what we're building and how many shields we make in the city. We only get 10 shields if there are 10 more to be built in the production. If we've built 5/10 on a warrior, then we only get 5. I'm not saying this is a bad plan (seems good to me), just pointing this out.

We might as well get a few gold from wealth instead of wasting production. hey 5 gold is 5 gold.

	02-12-2002 06:31									#17
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Aaargh, my brain is breaking trying to figure out the math... how do we optimize the value of clearing the forest, whilst still getting Warriors built and growing to 3 pop for a Settler? (AND, do we want a Settler at 3 pop or 4, considering the terrain?)

We need some of the micro-management geniuses here... I participated in the very early stages of the first demo game, and was blown away by some of the calculations people were doing (I'm not like that, I just go for it).

	02-12-2002 06:34									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, nbarclay proposed 'the plan'.

We get a Warrior 5 turns early, and stay on track for a settler on turn 20. Or sooner, if we get the worker in gear and irrigate one of the flood plains soon enough.

I think i would favour leaving the other forest(s) standing for the shield kick when we build graneries.

	02-12-2002 06:46									#19
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Sounds good.

That gives us 5 turns

	02-12-2002 06:55									#20
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Sorry, not sure I understand... work one of the forest / fur tiles for a fast Warrior?

	02-12-2002 07:03									#21
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yup,
Warrior will be done in 5 turns (10 shields from forest goes to warrior).

	02-12-2002 08:51									#22
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Is that what we want? (no pre-conceptions)

	02-12-2002 14:20									#23
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That sounds like a wise plan to me.

And no we don't want to cross that river yet. Doesn't it take 100% of a horseman's movement to cross, even on roads until engineering? As in, a unit with 2 movement on plains without road will have used up all of those movement points when he crosses the river with or without a road, correct?

	02-12-2002 21:10									#24
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I posted a couple of comments concerning our start in the 'Turn 2' thread, but I'll summarize them here because this seems like the right place:

1. Flood Plains; shouldn't we take advantage of these (earlier rather than later, I'm thinking)?

2. Luxuries; not a priority since we're on Monarch (or is it Regent?)

3. Expansion; I too am thinking up the river, mostly to use the other Flood Plain.


I don't know about Furs, but Flood Plains were the lifeblood of the entire Egyptian civiliaztion in real history. Maybe we should roleplay a bit?


Dominae

	02-12-2002 21:14									#25
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It seems the game has just (re)set us to regent, allthough it was set up to be monarch.

	02-12-2002 21:27									#26
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Dominae: flood plains are of no use early on, or we should be wanting for food. As long as we can have decent production whith decent food (and the 2/2/2 tiles will see to that), we should go for those instead. the combination of irrigated flood plain and mined hill (or furred forest) is only better once we get out of despotism, so for the moment we don't need the floodplain...

As to lux: why wouldn't it be a priority? I'd rather have 1 extra lux connected, then to need warriors as police... as long as we don't spot any other team, there is no need for a steep defense....

Meshelic, crossing a river doesn't delete all your remaining movement points, just the current one. If a horseman with 1/3 or 2/3 movement point crosses a river, he still has a full move remaining. If, however, he crosses it when he is at 1 movement point, he won't have movement remaining.

DeepO

	02-12-2002 21:39									#27
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I proposed some stuff in the "turn 2" thread. Basically, I want to take full advantage of chopping some forest early on. Floodplains can wait a bit, both because I don't want to waste worker movement getting there, and because I don't feel like dealing with disease (if any) just yet. If we're on Regent, we probably won't get disease, though.

I want to develop 3 tiles prior to even going to the floodplains. In 28 turns, I figure we can put out 3 warriors, a temple and a settler, with furs hooked up. Then we can work on the floodplains to speed our growth so we can pump settlers.

-Arrian

	02-12-2002 22:48									#28
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You guys seem to be thinking things through, so I'll jump out of this debate (where I don't belong, as a non-Economist!). I want to defend my comments on this one, though:

Flood Plain and Forest combination is great in the early game because you don't need to do much with your Worker. Thus you can get it to do other things, for instance setting up roads for a better REXing. Disease is not really a factor in my experience (that is, not going for Flood Plains based solely on this would be too cautious IMO).

I haven't thought too much about using cutting down Forests early on. You guys deem it optimal, so that's that. Thinking about it a little bit, I'm inclined to agree, based on the uncertainty of the map. This is where Expansionist really excels, because we could figure out if pure REX (irrigate those Flood Plains, baby!) is doable without risk. Now we have to play it cautious.

As for Luxuries, we appear to be playing on Regent, so we need a city with at least 5 pop for Luxury to really take effect. I don't think we plan on having those sorts of cities early on. Thus, I'm just cautioning against hooking up Luxuries like we normally would on an Emperor game (i.e. right away), because we can do better things with our Worker.

Keep up the good work (I'll go back to my very boring Ambassador position...).


Dominae

	02-12-2002 23:12									#29
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Argh... Regent.. that has been ages since I played Civ there. I'm totally not used to it. However, in the current fur situation, cutting forest, and hooking up the furs is better then just having forest, and with irrigation we will have one of the best tiles available... I only use flood plains when I got only forest to work with, not this balanced start. But I agree that it can have its uses, no argument there.

As to returning to the boring ambassador position: Same here

DeepO

	03-12-2002 03:20									#30
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Regent... hmm, research is gonna fly.

-Arrian