02-12-2002 06:39									#1
	Population Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Does anyone know how many citizens are in a poulation point? or how men are in a military unit?

Also, I think my coworker might be thinking of CTP2, but does the city radius expand beyond 20 squares? He claims it expanded again after he reached a population of around 25.

	02-12-2002 07:32									#2
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Cities can only have 21 workable tiles.

	02-12-2002 13:56									#3
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Well of course a city can have a population over 20. In fact, most of my cities get up into the ten's of millions. But of course, I assume you mean city size. In my games I achieve a city size in the high 30's lower 40's for most of my cities after I start building RR's everywhere.

The population assigned to a city of SIZE XX varies depending on XX. I believe a city starts out with a pop of 10,000 (don't quote me, I'm going with my memory from CivII). As the population of the city grows, the city size grows - but the growth is non-linear. Maybe it's multiplicative (10k, 20k, 40k etc) but I can't check this out right now.

Although you can have a city with a size greater than 20, all of these additional "citizens" must be either tax collectors, scientists, or entertainers. None of them can create additional shields, commerce or food by working the land (since there is no new land to work).

The "cultural" borders can certainly expand after a city has reached 20 (or greater). The expansion is based on the culture points of the city. They expand at 10, 100, 1000, 10.000, 100.000 etc. I'm not sure if it's possible to reach 100.000 but I've exceeded 10.000 in my capital city.

However, this only means that the city's cultural borders have expanded. The city workers (== the city SIZE) can't actually utilize these new squares. They are shaded out in the city screen. So your empire continues to expand but you can't exploit this new territory without a new city.

	02-12-2002 15:40									#4
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This is good for resources, you don't have to have the resource in workable tile to use it, only inside your cultural borders.

	02-12-2002 23:02									#5
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Actually a city is not guarantee to have 21 tiles that are workable in its radus as some could be overlapped by anoter city and hence not useable. The cities population is limited by the amount of food you have to feed the pop (if you have the prereq structures such as hospitals). Culture will coninue to be generated every turn based on the the cities properties (wonders/structures).

	09-12-2002 04:10									#6
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So what's the highest pop you can have? 33-35?

	09-12-2002 04:17									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit So what's the highest pop you can have? 33-35?

Actually, you can have city sizes well over a thousand. Someone at CFC discovered this cheat a while ago. Just add workers to the city in huge numbers, as you can only lose one pop point per turn.

	09-12-2002 16:38									#8
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In civ2 the formula for calculating citizens is p=10000*n*( (n+1)/2 ) where n is population points.

Civ3 use the same formula but also take into account the contents of the food box. The formula becomes p=10000*n*( (n+1)/2 ) + f*1000 where f is number of food in the box.

As for ctp2, yes it's cities expanded beyond 21 squares. Haven't played it for a while but I'm pretty sure I had cities which worked over 70 tiles.

	09-12-2002 18:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit So what's the highest pop you can have? 33-35?

If you mean the highest pop a sity can grow to by itself, the answer is 71 - if it has access to 20 flood plains with wheat in its 20 workable squares (in addition to its city square). That's a bit extreme though...

But even a city that has access to grassland only, can get 4 food out of each square, and thus a total of 82 food when all 20 squares are worked on, meaning that it can support 41 citizens.

	09-12-2002 19:37									#10
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71 citizens!! Did you have any pollution problems in that city? Guess Not

	09-12-2002 20:02									#11
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I have never had such a city, I only told you the theoretical maximum without manually adding workers/settlers.

I'm still looking forward to getting a starting position with 20 flood plains + wheat around my city. It would be fun to have a city that produced 102 extra food per turn at size 20. A pity that it would produce only one shield per turn though

	10-12-2002 04:42									#12
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Getting city sizes in a normal game of 43-45 is not out of the question, assuming you have all grass with a few cows/wheat.

	10-12-2002 14:54									#13
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theNiceOne , oops, misread your post a bit.

To lessen pollution problems I usually stop the growth of my cities around 25. A size 71 city could almost start global warming on its own. BTW, isn't flood plains safe from the effects of global warming?

	10-12-2002 15:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by bongo theNiceOne , oops, misread your post a bit. To lessen pollution problems I usually stop the growth of my cities around 25. A size 71 city could almost start global warming on its own. BTW, isn't flood plains safe from the effects of global warming?

If you have mass transit in a city, then the total pollution from citizens will be one pollution triangle, regardless of how big the city is.

For the record, my cities seldom grow above 15. I generally build them so close that I get to use almost all squares with only size 12 cities. This is a huge benefit before hospitals can be built, and quite good later too, as it gives a very small pollution problem and it's easy to keep all cities in WLTKD. You don't get any single powerhouse city that way, but you get lots of decent ones.

	10-12-2002 22:17									#15
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I guess the solution to this would be to put this closer to reality by making workers that are eating. These workers are population, it's just that they work for the state. Thus it'd demand a reevaluation of the model to put it right.

	10-12-2002 22:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna I guess the solution to this would be to put this closer to reality by making workers that are eating. These workers are population, it's just that they work for the state. Thus it'd demand a reevaluation of the model to put it right.

You could say the same about military units, though.

	11-12-2002 13:49									#17
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Trifna , that is the way it works in civ2, where settlers(and engineers) cost food. Could be a pain in the ass sometimes when you were short on food and needed a settler to increase food production...

	11-12-2002 16:07									#18
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Now that units don't have a home city any food requirement would have to be taken from a national food surplus. There is no such concept in civ3. perhaps there should be.

	11-12-2002 17:48									#19
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What about military units decreasing city population? Aside from draft

	11-12-2002 21:12									#20
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Yeah, I know it can be a pain in the ass but this is why it should be arranged realistically: because in reality it's not SUCH a problem to civilizations.

I guess the best system would simply be to divide our population in some sort of task distribution (taking 20% for "state working"). I'm for the idea of eliminating completely the tedious worker unit and replace it by a % bar, task managing and what it'd need.

But by keeping the worker unit, it would mean to balance it well. Balance what? Well balancing the capacity of work done by a worker versus it's cost in food. I mean, it doesn't take 200 persons for a year to make a road. Have to balance to something realistic and the rest will do fine.

	12-12-2002 13:45									#21
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Well you always have the public works model used in CTP. It makes terrain development less tedious but also removes worker capture as an military strategy.

Actually I'm quite happy with the current model.

	13-12-2002 06:01									#22
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Worker capture should be implemented in another way. Like your units going somewhere and having it in option, like we can destroy improvements. Or you enter a city and get slaves, etc.

	13-12-2002 13:45									#23
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Sounds almost like CTP to me.

How about just refining the current model a bit? Worker automation with a little twist? Make it possible to assign working ques to workers. Like 'I want roads on these tiles and when you're done with that I want a mine here and some irrigation over there. Oh and watch out for enemy units will you?'

	13-12-2002 14:22									#24
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quote: Actually, you can have city sizes well over a thousand. Someone at CFC discovered this cheat a while ago. Just add workers to the city in huge numbers, as you can only lose one pop point per turn.

AFAIK this isn't possible anymore, at least not in PTW where you can't ad workers when city is running a food deficit

	13-12-2002 19:58									#25
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bongo: then I guess CTP had this better, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be improved in some way.

	16-12-2002 14:07									#26
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CTP has a better tile improvement model than civ2, but so have civ3. CTP's model is perhaps better than civ3's but with some refining that would change things in favour of civ3.

	16-12-2002 22:39									#27
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I never played it, but from what I know CTP seems to have good concepts sometimes applies as concepts may be applied when it's a first try... So lots of nice stuff could be adapted but it'd need some refining and a little rethinking and adjusting.

	17-12-2002 12:18									#28
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In ctp you can devote a percentage of your production to public works. It works like a second treasury which only can be used for tile improvements. You could only build TI's within your own borders but building them would also expand your territory. Of the more interesting TI's were sonar bouyos and observation towers.

	18-12-2002 17:20									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna Worker capture should be implemented in another way. Like your units going somewhere and having it in option, like we can destroy improvements. Or you enter a city and get slaves, etc.

I would like to see universal Sufferage be a minor wonder and not be allowed to use workers as slaves after its built. Instead they would be sent to either POW or refugee camps inside the capturing civ's homeland. At the end of the war the workers would be repatriated to the former civ's owner. If the Civ is destroyed then they would be allowed to join a city and become citizens to be assimilated.