02-12-2002 11:31									#1
	What to do with our Cattle Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This was discussed during the turnchat, but we wanted to get the input from the full team. As you can see in the screenshots of our starting position, we have a cow conveniently located next to our city. We have several options as to what to do with it, and since we don't officially have ministers yet, the desicion falls to the team! We need to decide this quick, in case we end up playing another turn in a day or so (which isn't clear yet whether we will be...)

	02-12-2002 11:32									#2
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I personally feel we should mine it, then road it. Irrigation isn't really needed right now, and we can use the production boost quickly.

	02-12-2002 12:44									#3
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Mine than road is the obvious choice, but we must poll the team.

	02-12-2002 13:40									#4
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Mine, then road.

	02-12-2002 14:24									#5
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Mine, then road.

Extra food production is not necessary, as the cow gives us a nice growth edge anyway. We need as many shields as possible to crank out units/improvements. As we will be using maximum of three worked Legopolis tiles for quite some time, I believe we should focus on shield production as long as we get a food surplus of at least 2.

	02-12-2002 21:05									#6
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I see someone voted Road then Mine. Normally I would do this as well, but since the cattle is next to the river it already gives us one trade. It would be best to get the production boost first, then get the nice extra trade by putting road next to river.

I voted Mine then Road, of course.

	03-12-2002 00:47									#7
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It is a few turns away, but I'm assuming that after the cattle we'll mine and road the shielded grassland, isn't it?

Btw, Radek, did you put the science slider on 100% and initiated research on BW? I'm convinced you did, but I thought I should ask, just in case.

	03-12-2002 03:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius It is a few turns away, but I'm assuming that after the cattle we'll mine and road the shielded grassland, isn't it?

Whatever we do with the cow, that's the logicial next step.

quote: Btw, Radek, did you put the science slider on 100% and initiated research on BW? I'm convinced you did, but I thought I should ask, just in case.

Don't know whether it's 90% or 100% (they both put all our current money to research IIRC), but yep, all our money is being put into Bronze Working.

	04-12-2002 06:08									#9
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Okay, I ran a scenario with 1.29, and it turns out WE LOSE by mining first. I created a start with identical city and cattle tiles and played it through to 3700 BC, switching the mine and road order the second time.

In 3700 BC, the year when both mine and road are completed, 1 warrior has been produced and the one in production is 3 turns till in BOTH scenarios. However, we lose 3 commerce if we mine first; and, in Civ3 1.29, this causes us to be one turn behind in research on Bronze Working (10 turns till mining first, 9 turns till roading first).

Since no one supports Irrigation, I suggest we road, then mine. I know that goes against this poll, but there is absolutely no reason to mine first; due to the build order, it won't benefit us. Commerce, on the other hand, will.

	04-12-2002 06:12									#10
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Sorry to notice Kloreep, but aren't those figures using accelerated production?

If so, can you recalculate it using regular production?

I will try to run a scenario in PTW, but I am not sure how quickly I will be able to set up the same parameters.

	04-12-2002 06:21									#11
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No, no accel. prod. I made sure of that.

I extended the scenario to see what we should do with the bonus grass, and it seems we should road then mine once again. (Note that I gathered this data assuming the cattle will be roaded then mined.)

In 3400 BC (when both road and mine are completed on the bonus grass), both scenarios have produced 3 warriors, and will produce a settler in another 5 turns. However, in the road first scenario, we are one turn away from BW; in the mine first scenario, we are 2 turns away.

So, if we play (or work ) both tiles right, we will get BW two turns sooner while producing a warrior-warrior-warrior-settler queue at the same speed as if mined any tiles first.

	04-12-2002 06:41									#12
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Ah good!

Excellent analysis, Kloreep !

I wonder if with this information we should have a revote, as I voted mine-road, but would now vote road-mine.

While we don't want to cheat by playing ahead, I wonder if your scenario can be modified to add in the terrain information that we will uncover in future turns.

By creating a "model" of the known situation in the game, we might be able to test and better analyze situations, and even project things into the future.

	04-12-2002 06:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Ah good! Excellent analysis, Kloreep ! I wonder if with this information we should have a revote, as I voted mine-road, but would now vote road-mine.

I guess I might as well post one.

But I urge whoever's playing our turn to road anyway; this poll shows everyone wants to mine, and no person with sense would object when they saw we'd be throwing away commerce for no benefit.

quote: While we don't want to cheat by playing ahead, I wonder if your scenario can be modified to add in the terrain information that we will uncover in future turns. By creating a "model" of the known situation in the game, we might be able to test and better analyze situations, and even project things into the future.

This would definitely be possible, and I think we should use this technique for a little while more.

Of course, it'll get insane after a while, as you have to repeat everything starting from 4000 BC to make sure you get the research, etc. right. But simulations will be useful for a while.