03-12-2002 05:54									#61
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I surrender!

	03-12-2002 05:57									#62
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quote: I surrender!

Well that wasn't very hard. You'll never succeed with that work ethic...

	03-12-2002 05:58									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Success on the war on terror Let's add some more stuff to the Bush--- BAD List -- Gave massive tax cuts to the wealthy (Enron received nearly 500 million dollars, despite not paying any taxes from 1997-2000)

And he was president for which of these years, exactly? EDIT: Damn I didn't see Dino's post.

quote: Bush is a moron... but he'll be out in 2004 so it doesn't matter.

Can I hold you to that quote? The Democrats have nobody good to run. Bush, and the Republicans in general, have garnered a lot of support from the moderates. Things are looking bad for the Dems.

	03-12-2002 06:02									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yes... the American Dream isn't just "dream", it's a reality for those who are willing to work and willing to understand the system. I do feel for those that have to work hard all their lives and get very little back in return.

What happens to the people who, through no fault of their own, don't 'understand the system' ?

You can get a good education, start to work for a prosperous company, invest in their success... seems like a great system unless the company is named 'Enron'.

Look. Both socialism and capitalism have good points, and bad ones. Bottom line is, there are a lot more people in the US (and elsewhere) who work hard and DON'T get to live the 'American dream', than those who do live it.

Lots of immigrants become successful... and lots more wind up in sweatshops, or unemployed. Is society as a whole better off not helping people in that position? Or is society better off paying to keep them in gaol, after they get caught trying to 'understand the system' better?

	03-12-2002 06:13									#65
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While I feel for those people... they made the wrong choices. Sure, some people lose because of things out of their control. But I get sick to death of hearing how you have to come from rich parents to be rich... and all that crap.

The majority of people in the in US have a higher standard of living than most people in the world. And yes there are poor people... EVERY SOCIETY has them...

And the Government has set up programs to help. The problem is... they are badly run programs.

I have no problems with WELL RUN social progams meant to help unfortunate people... And while the US has many such programs, most of them are poorly conceived and even worse managed. I would love to see these programs reformed so that actually can help. The government has thrown a lot of money at domestic programs aimed at helping people. It's time they learn how to spend the money right.

But that doesn't stop me from liking a system that allows people that make the right choices to get ahead.

	03-12-2002 06:16									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior The Democrats have nobody good to run.

Are you saying Al Gore and Senator Kerry are no good.

	03-12-2002 06:27									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ming While I feel for those people... they made the wrong choices. Sure, some people lose because of things out of their control. But I get sick to death of hearing how you have to come from rich parents to be rich... and all that crap. The majority of people in the in US have a higher standard of living than most people in the world. And yes there are poor people... EVERY SOCIETY has them... And the Government has set up programs to help. The problem is... they are badly run programs. I have no problems with WELL RUN social progams meant to help unfortunate people... And while the US has many such programs, most of them are poorly conceived and even worse managed. I would love to see these programs reformed so that actually can help. The government has thrown a lot of money at domestic programs aimed at helping people. It's time they learn how to spend the money right. But that doesn't stop me from liking a system that allows people that make the right choices to get ahead.

Well... how does one know in advance what the right choice is? Sure, get an education, try to find a business niche that needs filling, work hard. Common sense. But quite often, these things can change suddenly - that dot com startup seemed like a good investment! - and it goes bad. My problem with the absolutist view of capitalism is that the only ones who REALLY benefit are the top 2-5% of the population. The working class does OK, but they pay more than their share, relative to the truly rich. And the attitude seems to be, screw the poor. Nobody chooses to be poor... and society would be a lot better off giving people in that situatuon a second chance.

You don't have to come from rich parents to be rich. But I'd say you have a much better chance of being rich if you do.

And yes, every society has poor people. The US is one of the few that has the resources to do something to help them, though.

	03-12-2002 06:30									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man What happens to the people who, through no fault of their own, don't 'understand the system' ? You can get a good education, start to work for a prosperous company, invest in their success... seems like a great system unless the company is named 'Enron'.

If you don't understand the system you fail. If you put all your eggs in one basket a la Enron, you aren't understanding the system. Yes capitalism does have risks. However, more people win than lose, and anybody is capable of winning.

We're not saying that everyone wins. We're just saying that if you provide something that people are willing to pay for, be that brains, talent, a nifty product, or whatever, you'll do well. If you don't have anything to offer, then you'll have nothing to gain.

	03-12-2002 06:32									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Are you saying Al Gore and Senator Kerry are no good.

Kerry was in Vietnam Vets Agsint the War, so he's not all bad. But he's moved far from that position since then.

Yes, I'd say they are both no good, although they are both credible threats to Bush, Gore especially, as he now seems to be able to motiveate people where he couldn't before. It's just an act, and he's still a closet conservative, and he'll still be an imperial President if he wins.

The only good presidents are money, and even they can betray you.

	03-12-2002 06:52									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X If you don't understand the system you fail. If you put all your eggs in one basket a la Enron, you aren't understanding the system. Yes capitalism does have risks. However, more people win than lose, and anybody is capable of winning.

I don't think so... it seems a lot more people are below the poverty line, than earning 100K or more, if you check a demographics webpage. But those are just 2 ways to define winning and losing. It's apparent that there are a few big winners, some doing well, some just getting by, and some who are really hurting. I guess it depends on how you define 'winning'. It does seem pretty clear that the capitalist system is set up to provide the greatest benefit to the top 2-5% of earners... I always marvel that the other 95-97% continually gives the thumbs up to that. I guess some dreams, however unrealistic, never die.

It's simplistic to say that failure=not understanding the system. The 'system' was different in 1950, or even 1990, than it is now. Kind of hard to change careers after 20 years in the workforce, as anyone who's tried will attest. And blaming people for something they couldn't forsee (that caused their failure) is one of the least attractive American traits.

	03-12-2002 07:03									#71
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quote: The government has thrown a lot of money at domestic programs aimed at helping people. It's time they learn how to spend the money right.

As opposed to "throwing a lot of money" at pork-filled defense contracts and corporate welfare? The social programs are a fraction of those, dollar-wise, yet the impact they have in peoples live can't have a value placed on it.

Conservatives seem quite content to hold up the druggie or the welfare queen as the example of a wasteful system, yet have no qualms about greasing the palms of corporations with much more money than the poor ask for in times of need.

Bush is no different.

	03-12-2002 08:44									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man And yes, every society has poor people. The US is one of the few that has the resources to do something to help them, though.

In the spirit of my current read "Atlas Shrugged", the real question is why should it? What value is there in an entitlement program? A re-training program perhaps there is value to be gained, but what moral responsibility does the government truly have other than to provide security and opportunity.

	03-12-2002 09:29									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The argument that you will not be poor if you work hard is BS. My parents have worked hard all thier lives but we still live from paycheck to paycheck, classic working class. To become rich you need to be born to a rich family, or be lucky. (Lottery, Pro sports, Acting, Music,etc.) Also, You are limited (generally) by your education and most poor people don't have the money to go to college (Community colleges and tech schools don't count, I feel, as real secondary education)

Both of my parents grew up on farms in the 1930's - 1950's. They were quite poor. They both went to college in the 50's. Then they worked in Asia as missionaries for about 10 years (making very little money). Then they both went back to school in the 70's. My mother became an MD and my father a college professor. They made enough money to buy homes, take vacations etc. They are upper middle class people.

They did all this from scratch. No one in their families had ever attended college before them. My mother's father only got to the 4th grade, while her mother made it to the 8th grade before each of them had to go to work to support their families during the depression. It seems to me that people can succeed here in the U.S., despite coming from humble beginnings. They have to want to succeed rather than complain of course, and they have to make good decisions along the way.

You seem to be caught up in your parent's version of reality. "The game is fixed so why try?" I've seen a lot of my working class relatives use the same excuses to remain poor. Don't fall for it! You haven't taken your shot at it, and it would be a shame to spend the rest of your days sullen and destitute, blaming everyone else for your own paranoia and unwillingness to take a chance.

As for me, I was lucky to have good role models economics-wise. I just went out and got jobs, even in really bleak economic times when I was the least employable in the late 70's and early 80's. Now I am comfortable. I have chosen to forego a lot of money in exchange for having a job where I have a lot of freedom to read, post on Apolyton etc. It's easy and comfortable, and having grown up fairly poor (my parents didn't get back to school in time to make much money until I was already out of the house), my needs and desires for the things that money can buy are quite limited and for the most part fulfilled. I still make enough to own my home, pay for health care and food etc., a new computer every couple of years, games, books, CDs, and a few vacations a year. It's not that hard. You don't need a college degree to do what I do, you just have to know you want to do it and have to have a good IQ.

	03-12-2002 09:45									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Well... how does one know in advance what the right choice is? Sure, get an education, try to find a business niche that needs filling, work hard. Common sense. But quite often, these things can change suddenly - that dot com startup seemed like a good investment! - and it goes bad.

There are things that are always going to be in demand, even if they are never the hottest thing going. If you fear taking a huge risk in your life you might want to go into one of these fields. You won't make as much money perhaps, but you will have a lot more security than getting paid in stock options from a dot com. For instance, I work in a hospital. There are no shortage of jobs here. The pay is ok for the level of education required (in general), the benefits are good, the hours are bad. But it's quite secure, as recession or not people still get sick.

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man My problem with the absolutist view of capitalism is that the only ones who REALLY benefit are the top 2-5% of the population. The working class does OK, but they pay more than their share, relative to the truly rich.

Are you speaking of taxes here, because if you are you are wrong about that. The working class does quite well in the U.S., as they are on the receiving end of a number of entitlements that should be welfare programs (social security), and they still don't pay their fair share of the tax burden if you define that burden as a straight precentage of income. The poor pull even less of their own weight, but that is pretty well known I suppose. The rich pay a vast majority of the tax burden.

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man And the attitude seems to be, screw the poor. Nobody chooses to be poor... and society would be a lot better off giving people in that situatuon a second chance.

I agree, but I would also say that we as a society have a right to withhold our largesse when we feel that we are being taken advantage of.

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man You don't have to come from rich parents to be rich. But I'd say you have a much better chance of being rich if you do.

I agree, and probably the greatest gift that is given to the children of the well to do is that of a good example. Let's face it, inherited wealth is usually completely squandered within a couple of generations. But understanding how to succeed and emulating that is a thousand times easier if your parents model that sort of behavior. I've seen this in action many many times, and it works.

	03-12-2002 09:54									#75
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I didn't want to post in this thread after having started it (wanted to sit back and watch the OT Forum psychology unfold...), but when exactly did this become a pissing contest to see whose parents were poorest?

The topic is Pres. Bush Jr.'s scorecard: the Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the Scary.

	03-12-2002 09:59									#76
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quote: but when exactly did this become a pissing contest to see whose parents were poorest?

Right about here...

quote: The argument that you will not be poor if you work hard is BS. My parents have worked hard all thier lives but we still live from paycheck to paycheck, classic working class. To become rich you need to be born to a rich family, or be lucky. (Lottery, Pro sports, Acting, Music,etc.)

	03-12-2002 10:20									#77
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You can thank the traditional Anti America trolls for claiming as usual that capitalism sucks, and that we are all evil because Bush is a republican and pro business and not a liberal who wants to tax us more so they can waste the money in programs that aren't accomplishing much

	03-12-2002 10:24									#78
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quote: Imran: Your friend then left comunity college and went to rutgers, so that is irrelavent. Community colleges and tech schools are only 2-year as far as I know, and an associates degree is only slightly better than high school.

And he took government loans at Rutgers. It ain't that hard to get loans, bub. Hell, I'm going to leave Law School with $130,000+ in loans, but I'll work hard and pay it off.

Yea, some people make the wrong choices, but there are winners and losers in the system. And the middle class are doing pretty damn good for themselves.

	03-12-2002 10:29									#79
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Ming, I used to think conspiracy theory nuts were right-wingers who just knew that Jewish bankers controlled the world.

However, I find it amusing to see that the "average" leftist is also a conspiracy theory junkie. They see conspiracies everywhere. Every action of a the United States, Israel or any Republican has to be explained in terms of one of their pet theories. For example, Iraq is about Big Oil. So was Afganistan. Etc. Etc.

I wonder where this all comes from?

Last edited by Ned on 03-12-2002 at 21:22

	03-12-2002 10:34									#80
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I always love how they try to make it sound that only 2 to 5% of the people win under Capitalism... Tell that to the middle class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools... There are poor in every country... no matter what form of government.

	03-12-2002 10:39									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe In the spirit of my current read "Atlas Shrugged", the real question is why should it? What value is there in an entitlement program? A re-training program perhaps there is value to be gained, but what moral responsibility does the government truly have other than to provide security and opportunity.

Forget moral responsibility. Your economy right now is driven by consumer spending. Plus, policing, courts, prisons, security guards, gated communities, insurance, liability costs, even shoplifting... all these costs go up when you have great numbers of poor people who have lost hope.

It makes much more sense, from a strictly economic point of view, to give people a living income and training so that a) they'll spend, and be a contributing to society in that sense, b) not need to resort to crime, which is VERY expensive for a society, and c) they can hopefully return to a working class lifestyle level like the majority of the population.

If economic reasons and moral reasons aren't good enough, what is good enough?




Awwww Ming... please don't dismiss things you don't agree with as trolling. It hurts my feelings. Besides, you do it too

	03-12-2002 10:43									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I always love how they try to make it sound that only 2 to 5% of the people win under Capitalism... Tell that to the middle class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools... There are poor in every country... no matter what form of government.

Er, point of order: middle class means 'business owners'. If you work for someone else, you are working class.

Again, pick your terms as to what 'winning' is. Are you a millionaire? If so, congrats, the tax system works for you. If not... you're subsidizing a corporate tax break. I don't call that winning.

	03-12-2002 10:45									#83
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More to the point... why have people live in poverty when your society could easily afford to give them a decent lifestyle?

	03-12-2002 10:46									#84
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quote: It makes much more sense, from a strictly economic point of view, to give people a living income and training so that a) they'll spend, and be a contributing to society in that sense, b) not need to resort to crime, which is VERY expensive for a society, and c) they can hopefully return to a working class lifestyle level like the majority of the population.

How much economics do you know?

To give people a 'living income' you'd have to raise taxes a MASSIVE amount, strangling middle class spending, where the economy is REALLY dependant on. It isn't just consumer spending, but middle class spending, so everything is geared, basically, to them. Yes, even the Bush tax cut was in a large part geared to them.

Inocome taxes to the rich, which the Dems went nuts about? Miniscule. That does help the economy, but it's the middle class that the tax cut was for. Especially upper middle class.

	03-12-2002 10:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Awwww Ming... please don't dismiss things you don't agree with as trolling. It hurts my feelings. Besides, you do it too

I'm not dismissing anything... just pointing out that while there are poor people in America... a BIG majority have an excellent standard of living... and the ole 2 to 5% argument is just a red herring used by the socialists... Heck, recent examples of socialism and communism also have their elite class... they are not only rich, but they are the government So please don't try the high road stuff.

I also love it when people assume that if you come from a good family, that you are successful only because of your parents... Heck, as I said, my dad started off dirt poor... and taught his three sons how to be successful.

None of us were set up in business by him, or have received any money... My degree is from a State School... but we learned our lessons and all have very successful careers... I spit on those that think I didn't earn what I have...

People make choices... and if you don't make the right choices, it isn't MY fault.

	03-12-2002 10:51									#86
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"People make choices... and if you don't make the right choices, it isn't MY fault."

The essential difference between Canada and America...

We have something called 'social responsibility' here.

Don't ask me what it means, I'm not even sure myself.

	03-12-2002 10:57									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker The essential difference between Canada and America... We have something called 'social responsibility' here. Don't ask me what it means, I'm not even sure myself.

It just means you have a "free" healthcare system where you have to wait many years for things that are considered basic health care treatments in the US...

And old man...

quote: Er, point of order: middle class means 'business owners'. If you work for someone else, you are working class.

Not really, middle class is NOT defined as business owners... but if that is how you understand it... let me rephrase it then... just for you

Tell that to the middle class and working class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools...

Is that better for you

	03-12-2002 11:02									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How much economics do you know? To give people a 'living income' you'd have to raise taxes a MASSIVE amount, strangling middle class spending, where the economy is REALLY dependant on.

*sighs* did you read the rest of my post, or when you saw the words 'give people a living income', did your knee jerk so hard that you knocked the monitor over?

The idea is that you'd would save a lot more in the long run by curing a lot of societal ills. Probably the income supplements would amount to about half the money spent on defence contracts. Priorities, priorities... guns or butter?

@Ming - the right choices aren't always going to get you ahead. And the wrong choices won't necessarily kill you either. Life is part skill, part chance. So, lets forget welfare cheats - the bottom line is, should good people live in poverty? That's the question.

	03-12-2002 11:12									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Not really, middle class is NOT defined as business owners... but if that is how you understand it... let me rephrase it then... just for you Tell that to the middle class and working class... you know, the ones with their beautiful homes... their SUV's... and send their kids to good schools... Is that better for you

It's better for me... the words 'middle class' have been somewhat hijacked over the years.

Anyhoo. Yes, some of the working class have big homes, big SUVs. And the US also has the lowest levels of consumer SAVING that it ever has had, and the highest level (as a percentage of income) of consumer debt of any time in US history. So those lifestyle perks aren't necessarily the product of of an economy that benefits the working class.

And if you like, I can amend my point: In a fair system, the working classes would have even bigger SUVs. Right now, the money that could be used to upgrade the 4Runner to an LX470 is instead being used to fund defence contracts and corporate largesse.

	03-12-2002 11:14									#90
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People should live in poverty if they make the choice to do so. Yeah, there are some people that should become "wards" of the state... the mentally ill or severly handicapted don't have the choice... I have no problem with my tax money being spent on helping people who will use that help and try to improve themselves by making he right choices. If they don't want to do what is needed to pull themselves out of poverty, I don't see why the government should have to drag by the neck... it is their choice.

I know a poor black single mother... her boyfriend got her pregnant and left. She went on welfare... learned typing skills... became a secretary and used much of her salary on day care... in her spare time she studied for her real estate license... and started doing some on the side. She is now a very successful real estate agent, living in a beautiful home in the upscale northern suberbs of Chicago... She is her own boss and now spends tons of time with her child.

Now please tell me why others can't make those same choices... There are many paths to success... it's not that hard to find one.