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DRoseDARs
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"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:24
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(I'll add proper links later as I dig them up from other threads - whom I will also provide links to - and major media outlets)
Let us review President Bush Jr's scorecard thus far:
(Note: Please add anything to this list that could be considered as the GOOD things he's done as I could only think of the BAD, the UGLY, and downright SCARY things he's done thus far in his administration...)
1) Creating a second-track court system:
Seems to totally bypass the US Constitution
Apolyton Thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=69523
Washington Post - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Nov30.html
2) Office of DisInformation:
Now defunct (riiight...  )
3) TIA Total Information Awareness:
Now I'm gonna be forever creeped-out by those CapitalOne Credit Card commercials: "What's in YOUR wallet...?"
Apolyton Thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=67720
New York Times - Well, you have to sign up for free...follow link provided in first post of that thread
4) Homeland Security:
Dubious powers recently granted both to DoHS and the F.B.I.
5) Operation TIPS:
Scaled back (riiight... ) after outcry from ACLU and members of Congress
6) Desire to create a Domestic Spying Agency:
Gestapo anyone?
7) Patriot Act:
Rushed through Congress with little outside notice
8) Trying to turn a blind eye to Corporate America and the Modern Aristocracy:
Riders added last-minute to Homeland Security bill, more tax cuts for the wealthy, buggling of investigations into corporate/executive fraud
9) Rolling back environmentel protections:
Alaska drilling which wouldn't give us enough barrels of oil to help us in any kind of crisis, Clean Air Act, forest logging, dismissing Kyoto Accords only later acknowledging the possiblity of there being potentially a chance that Humans might be indirectly affecting - in minor ways and isolated cases - the Earth's enviroment through our activities...maybe...
10) Snubbing nose at international community:
Only begrudgingly going to the UN and waiting out the process with some prodding after immense pressure - both at home and abroad, all too eager to go-it-alone with War on Terrorism
11) Backing out of Anti-Ballistic treaty:
Wants to develope NEW kinds of nukes AND open up the possiblity to use small-scale tactical nukes on the battlefield
All this just in President Bush Jr's first 2 years in office, mostly just in the past few months...
I realize that there are several different threads on each of these topics, but perhaps this one could be used as a more condensed version, or a focusing point for discussion...IF the mods approve.
Discuss...
Last edited by DRoseDARs on 02-12-2002 at 16:28
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The diplomat
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
(I'll add proper links later as I dig them up from other threads - whom I will also provide links to - and major media outlets)
Let us review President Bush Jr's scorecard thus far:
(Note: Please add anything to this list that could be considered as the GOOD things he's done as I could only think of the BAD, the UGLY, and downright SCARY things he's done thus far in his administration...)
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I think your review is very biased.
This is the same court system that has existed since before WW2 and was used extensively to try japanese and german spies. When was the outrage then?
quote:
2) Office of DisInformation:
Now defunct (riiight... )
3) TIA Total Information Awareness:
Now I'm gonna be forever creeped-out by those CapitalOne Credit Card commercials: "What's in YOUR wallet...?"
Apolyton Thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=67720
New York Times - Well, you have to sign up for free...follow link provided in first post of that thread
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So, the logo is creepy and invites conspiracy theories. Just because the logo is creepy does not mean that they are necessarily bad. It is just a logo.
quote:
4) Homeland Security:
Dubious powers recently granted both to DoHS and the F.B.I.
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What dubious powers?
The important thing is that the DoHS simply combines the already existing agencies like FBI, INS, Coast Guard into a single organization for better coordination and efficiency. The DoHS is not some new secret agency.
quote:
5) Operation TIPS:
Scaled back (riiight... ) after outcry from ACLU and members of Congress
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Agreed. Hopefully it will be scaled back further and even terminated soon. It was a bad idea.
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6) Desire to create a Domestic Spying Agency:
Gestapo anyone?
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Britain has a domestic spying agency, called the MI5, and I don't hear anyone screaming that they are a gestapo organization and a dictatorial society.
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7) Patriot Act:
Rushed through Congress with little outside notice
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Could you be more specific?
quote:
8) Trying to turn a blind eye to Corporate America and the Modern Aristocracy:
Riders added last-minute to Homeland Security bill, more tax cuts for the wealthy, buggling of investigations into corporate/executive fraud
[quote]
That is democratic propaganda again. For example, the Terrorism Insurance provision helps companies go ahead with large scale construction projects without fear of loss of property in the event of a terrorist attack. Helping these construction projects go ahead will provide more jobs for construction workers as well as help businesses grow.
The tax cuts go to to everyone who pays taxes, middle or high income. Or do you suggest giving tax cuts to the begger that has no money and pays no taxes? How does that help the economy? The best to help the economy is to give tax cuts to people that have the power to stimulate the economy!
[quote]
9) Rolling back environmentel protections:
Alaska drilling which wouldn't give us enough barrels of oil to help us in any kind of crisis, Clean Air Act, forest logging, dismissing Kyoto Accords only later acknowledging the possiblity of there being potentially a chance that Humans might be indirectly affecting - in minor ways and isolated cases - the Earth's enviroment through our activities...maybe...
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Many of these protections were inefficient, bureaucratic mess that helped no one and certainly not the envirronment nor the economy.
Now we can sign the Kyoto Accord and lose more jobs and hurt our economy just so that we can feel good about yourselves because we can pretend that we care about nature. Or, we can stimulate the economy and protect the environment in a serious way.
quote:
10) Snubbing nose at international community:
Only begrudgingly going to the UN and waiting out the process with some prodding after immense pressure - both at home and abroad, all too eager to go-it-alone with War on Terrorism
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What if the international community is wrong or does not have our interests at heart? Should we follow the international community anyway so that we can feel good about ourselves?
Bush went to the UN and got them to unanimously approve his Iraq resolution. Now we are in a better position than ever to disarm Saddam and protect this nation against weapons of mass destruction. Bush is trying to protect this nation from terrorism, something Bill Clinton obviously knew nothing about!
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11) Backing out of Anti-Ballistic treaty:
Wants to develope NEW kinds of nukes AND open up the possiblity to use small-scale tactical nukes on the battlefield
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The ABM treaty is a cold war relic. So we should adhere to a treaty that hurts our national security just to make others happy? Bush is moving along with a missile defense system that will actually try to protect this country and our allies against ballistic missile threats.
Someday, our missile defense system might actually save millions of South Korean lives from a North Korean nuclear attack, something your ABM treaty will never be able to do. After all, the ABM treaty did not prevent NK from developping nukes and long range missiles, it just prevented us from developping a defense against it.
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All this just in President Bush Jr's first 2 years in office, mostly just in the past few months... |
And you are forgetting many acomplishments:
1) Education bill
2) Corporate Reform bill
3) Campaign Finance Reform bill
4) Successes in the War on terrorism. We freed Afghanistan from a tyrannical government, the Taliban, and killed or captured may Al Queda leaders and operatives. We have alos freezed financial assets for terrorist groups around the world making it harder for those groups to operate. We have organized unprecended world wide cooperation against terrorism.
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The diplomat
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:24
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Corporations are the evil incarnates, their sole purpose is to make money at the expense of everyone else. Get off your high horse diplomat because you're just plain wrong. |
What do you think the purpose of business is? Of course it is to make as much profit as possible. That is the nature of capitalism!
But guess what happens when corporations make more profits? They invest that money to create more factories and more offices, and more research etc... They create jobs! Now some of those jobs will be low paying jobs.
But if I were a worker that had just lost my job, I'd prefer a low paying job to welfare checks anyday!
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And now, the money given to corporate America IS at the expense of millions of federal employees who already make, on average, about 20% less than their private sector equivalents. But don't take that as support for privatization. |
I sure will take your example as support for privatization. If I were a government employee earning 20% less than my private sector counterpart, I'd try to change job as fast as possible. Wouldn't you change jobs if you could earn 20% more money?
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When a democratic government controls jobs, the people in charge have accountability to the people. The second you privatize, you take away accountability and without accountability, you don't have democracy. |
Stop using silly euphemisms like "democratic government controlled jobs" That's socialism, plain and simple! It's been tried over and over again and it has failed every single time it tried.
Here is why: when government controls jobs, it will essentially sacrifice job growth in order to have job security. The problem is that someone has to pay for all those government benefits. The only way for government to pay for benefits for all, is through higher taxes. Higher taxes burden the economy which makes the need for government controlled jobs even higher, which means that government has to raise taxes even more so as to pay for even more benefits.
I think you see the vicious circle. You end up with a bloated government taxing everybody to death (literally!) so as to insure that everyone has a safe confortable job. It doesn't work!
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Sava
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GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:24
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Socialism tried several times and failed? Are you living in the bizarro world? Look at the Canada and other more socialism-like democracies. Their people have much more opprotunities than in the US.
I know that is the purpose of capitalism... and as DD pointed out, it's pointless to argue with me because I believe capitalism is evil.
I also don't understand why people think its a bad thing to pay like 60 percent taxes. Most people now can't afford health care, education, and housing. THAT MEANS THAT MORE THAN 100% OF THEIR INCOME IS NEEDED TO PAY FOR THOSE THINGS. People look at taxes as being bad, but if say 60% of your income is going towards health care, education, public transportation, etc... YOU HAVE 40 PERCENT TO SPEND ON WHATEVER YOU WANT. How many people (aside from the richest 1%) can say they can spend 40 percent of their income on consumer goods/luxuries, or save it? Hmmm?
The problem with most anti-socialists is that they can't see past their own selfish tendencies. It's the old "blah blah, I don't want the government taking my money".
Well, you need to think outside the box, look past your own selfishness, and think about how worse off life is for millions of people other than you.
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Ming
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Hmmm... I have friends who came over to this country with no money, and couldn't even speak the language... yet they worked hard and have been able to achieve success.
I know people who grew up in the worst parts of the city... where people claim that there is no hope, and that their race puts them at a disadvantage... yet through hard work, they have been able to lift themselves out of the bad situation and be successful.
It's all about choices you make... as it should be. You will probably say that at birth, everybody isn't equal. I would agree... However, this doesn't mean you should give up and quit and just say "poor me, I'm screwed"
The reality is, not everybody will be equal at birth... that's a fact. But it is also a fact that if you make the right choices, and work very hard, you can succeed.
I have never said that all people on welfare are lazy... But I have said that some are, and abuse a bad system.
Good welfare programs help people find work and help them lift themselves up. Unfortunately, many of the current programs do no such thing and only encourage staying in the system. States like Wisconsin have had excellent results with experimental systems that encourage people instead of keep them locked in a system that is an endless cycle of poverty.
There are faults and problems with EVERY system.
You may "think" that one is more evil than another, but it's just an opinion, and others are welcome to think your opinions are evil as well 
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Ogie Oglethorpe
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Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
Many of these protections were inefficient, bureaucratic mess that helped no one and certainly not the envirronment nor the economy.
Now we can sign the Kyoto Accord and lose more jobs and hurt our economy just so that we can feel good about yourselves because we can pretend that we care about nature. Or, we can stimulate the economy and protect the environment in a serious way.
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Technically speaking the American public although mouthing the support of enviro bills and and acts will, when faced with the consequences of such bills, be in an open revolt.
The American public will all of a sudden be faced with the lack of choices the Euro's are currently faced with wrt automotive travel. No longer will Joe Blue Collar be allowed his 5.0 liter Mustang. No longer will Sally Housewife be allowed the priveledge of cheap produce.
In order to comply Kyoto accords massive cutbacks on green house gasses would need to happen. All everyone thinks of is it is the evil corporations who continue to rape the planet. News flash - Corps , chemical, petrochemical, power producers, car manufaturers etc. create a small percentage of green house emissions. The greatest offender of all is the common everyday citizen driving by himself/herself everyday. Think the greater public at large has a hard time swallowing a reduction in civil liberties, just see what happens when their cars are verbotten.
I get so fed up with the green crowd laying the whole of every environmental problem at the door step of industry. It the consumers and waste of consumers that are the problem, but as we all know it is not politcally expedient to target the voting consumers its much easier to target the evil corps.... ehh.
Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 03-12-2002 at 00:16
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02-12-2002 16:19
<---- "Debating" Sava
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