03-12-2002 10:45									#1
	Overall Diplomatic Situation Tired of ads?

I am very concerned with how the majority of other civs perceive us, and what our prospects for finding friends will be. Meshelic posted something that caught my eye and I feel the topic deserves a thread of its own.

Meshelics news:

quote: I discussed the talent issue with Panzer32 and a couple of other diplomats on the Apolyton chat (purely unnoficial, as it was a surprise so many foreign ministers were there all of a sudden). From the talks I had there, I gathered from the others there that we are : 1.) VERY intimidating 2.) thought to be likely game winner 3.) probably superior in most aspects of the game Either we should be wary that the others may gang up on us if they are too intimidated, or we should take advantage of their fears?

	03-12-2002 10:59									#2
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/somewhat facetious

How about we declare war on GoW? As long as everyone else is polite to us?

/end facetious

This is actually a serious problem. I am sure, pending map issues and locations, that the other teams are discussing how to deal with GS. We should assume that we have been 'targeted.'

I think what everyone will be watching for will be our relations with our first known neighbors... ultra-early warfare? buddies?

Don't forget, diplomacy has a whole new nature (not SP).

Courtesy of some of the Strategy Forum regulars (moi?), they'll be expecting the worst.

Heck, even if we play nice, I've gotta think that the players who *know* us will be on top military alert at all times.

Apologies to the builders in GS, but we've got to be realistic about how we are viewed.

	03-12-2002 10:59									#3
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Now my comment.

I feel very vulnerable on our strength. It is entirely possible that too many other cvs will regard us as too big a threat to ignore. That might lead to an easy to arrange 2 on 1 against us early in the game. Very bad news indeed.

Therefore I propose the following.

1. No member of Gathering Storm say anything in the least bit threatening to other teams or team members in the public forum or any other chat unless that is the stance we all agree to vis-a-vis that civ. Intimidate when it is good to do so. We are already intimidating enough without adding to the rep with other potential friends.

2. For those prone to chit-chat, please seek out opinions about us at any opportunity without seeming to be too... paranoid. If the topic comes up ask what about us people fear. Do not go out digging for it, it will come to you if you are patient.

3. Again for those prone to chit-chat, waste no opportunity to let others know that we are likely to be quite happy to build, and build, and build. Sorry Theseus, but the more others can accept that we are not heck-bent on leather to build mixed armies of conquest, the less likely we are to face the 2 or 3 on 1 that we all would rather avoid. The time will come when we are secure, and we can take advantage of opportunities, which brings me to...

4. A general discussion of the reprecussions for us if we were to start wars rather than intervening in them.

Situation A. A war starts between civ a and civ b. It will happen. We are a neighbour of one or both. Who can blame us for picking a side that we would benefit from?

Situation B. We pick a civ and go after them out of the blue. Right there we may well pick up 5 additional enemies. If we are regarded as a threat, and we reinforce that view, we will reap what we sow at an early date.

Finally, there should be absolutely ZERO discussion of our start, beyond 'it is OK, not as bad as it could have been'. Any gloating of any kind can only heighten fears that we will be coming for them, soon. We need to allay these fears, not encourage them. Or have I got this wrong?

	03-12-2002 11:00									#4
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Pardon me for intruding in affairs of the Great Embassy, but...

If another civ has its heart set on winning, such a perception of us could easily paint a nice, big, fat bullseye on us. But if a civ merely wants to do well (as may be the case with LegoLand and RP), our reputation could make us the most potent ally they could hope to have and the civ they most want to be friends rather than enemies with. I don't feel comfortable trying to sell a strong "we're your friends" message to a civ we're planning to conquer eventually, but if long-term partnership is practical, we may be able to parley our reputation into trade partnerships and informal alliances. Another thing our reputation may do is buy us some time if prospective enemies are reluctant to try to take us on one on one and don't have help nearby, although I wouldn't count on it. (If GoW is next door, hitting us with archers before we get horses hooked up would have to be at least a little bit tempting.)

Nathan

	03-12-2002 11:01									#5
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Hot topic... multiple cross-posts.

	03-12-2002 11:07									#6
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nye, I totally bow to the needs of the team (i.e., no more Trash Talk )

Seriously, agreed with all above.

Diplomats, your job is tougher and more crucial ever.

Humans!!

	03-12-2002 11:07									#7
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If another civ has its heart set on winning, such a perception of us could easily paint a nice, big, fat bullseye on us. But if a civ merely wants to do well (as may be the case with LegoLand and RP), our reputation could make us the most potent ally they could hope to have and the civ they most want to be friends rather than enemies with. I don't feel comfortable trying to sell a strong "we're your friends" message to a civ we're planning to conquer eventually, but if long-term partnership is practical, we may be able to parley our reputation into trade partnerships and informal alliances.

Excellent food for thought. The best possible scenario for us is to be seen as the strong, yet reasonable and honourable team. Others will seek our friendship and protection (for which we do not extort).

The worst possible scenario is that we be seen as the Mongols of this world. Those who all fear, and none trust except to pillage them.

	03-12-2002 11:10									#8
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That's how I like to play anyway.

Better. Strong. Honorable.

	03-12-2002 11:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither 1. No member of Gathering Storm say anything in the least bit threatening to other teams or team members in the public forum or any other chat unless that is the stance we all agree to vis-a-vis that civ. Intimidate when it is good to do so. We are already intimidating enough without adding to the rep with other potential friends.

I couldn't agree more.

	03-12-2002 11:23									#10
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Excellent food for thought. The best possible scenario for us is to be seen as the strong, yet reasonable and honourable team. Others will seek our friendship and protection (for which we do not extort).

The ideal would be if wars fought on behalf of allies can pay for themselves through territory captured from the enemies of those allies. That would make our wars worthwhile without collecting a single gold from our friends. The second best case is if a neighbor attacks us at a foolish time, giving us an excuse to finish them (or at least wreck them) without the diplomatic "hit" of having started it. And I'm not sure anyone would shed tears if we take out Glory of War even if we're the ones who start it; mercenaries tend to have a hard time making genuine friends.

	03-12-2002 11:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus That's how I like to play anyway. Better. Strong. Honorable.

I am very happy that we agree.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The ideal would be if wars fought on behalf of allies can pay for themselves through territory captured from the enemies of those allies. That would make our wars worthwhile without collecting a single gold from our friends. The second best case is if a neighbor attacks us at a foolish time, giving us an excuse to finish them (or at least wreck them) without the diplomatic "hit" of having started it. And I'm not sure anyone would shed tears if we take out Glory of War even if we're the ones who start it; mercenaries tend to have a hard time making genuine friends.

Very. Wars should pay for themselves by our gains. The less we impose on others the better. Asking for a tech might not be bad. 'We'd love to, but we are researching right now. Could you help us out by giving us Iron Working? Then we do not have to wait.'

GoW? I think they are the exception to everything said so far, almost. I still would not like them to see us as required to go through to survive if they start close.

I am certain that Theseus and Arrian could stand us in good stead with War Chariots. Sir Ralph and I are no slouches either (among many others). However, it would be better to pick our own time for that reckoning.

	03-12-2002 12:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither GoW? I think they are the exception to everything said so far, almost. I still would not like them to see us as required to go through to survive if they start close. I am certain that Theseus and Arrian could stand us in good stead with War Chariots. Sir Ralph and I are no slouches either (among many others). However, it would be better to pick our own time for that reckoning.

The reason I make a special point regarding GoW is that if they start next to us, "our own time" had better be before they get Riders or we could find ourselves hurting pretty badly. They're avowedly militaristic enough that a preemptive strike to take them out before they get Riders could quite reasonably be construed as merely a matter of self-defense (and defense of anyone else they might choose to target).

On the other hand, we definitely don't want to make such a plan public. They'll probably suspect that the situation will come down to either them or us, but I'd much rather they just think we're the enemy than know we're the enemy.

	03-12-2002 12:34									#13
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I think our time would be with horse and sword, should they start near and should the situation allow.

Although, I am not afraid of defending against Riders with interior lines. They die as easily as Knights, and our roads would tip the balance. Assuming of course that we are bigger than they and can better afford a war. That is what it comes down to, against most any civ.

	03-12-2002 13:17									#14
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Regarding the chit-chat issues, I must agree with NYE. I myself have been doing that for the past 48 hours and I've come up with the fact that most civs are satisfied with their starting locations, but nothing more as of yet. Still, I'm patient.
Regarding foreign affairs, I think that we have two primary options:
1. Find the civ that has the most success building (and therefore are afraid of war) and come up with some treaty where we'll be protecting them in exchange for goods (tech, gold, lux etc'). Then we can announce that anyone who attacks this civ messes with us and hope that our reputation is intimidating enough, and that the other teams are too divided.
2. Find the civ that has the greatest military strength and ally with them in the same manner.
All in all, we can't be friends with everyone. We have to identify an ally or two as fast as possible.

	03-12-2002 13:58									#15
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I think the main point right now is that we want to avoid weakening any diplomatic bridges that we might want to cross later. Until we see what kind of land mass we're starting on and who else is on it, we have no idea what balance between building and fighting will work best for us. If we start on a land mass alone with Glory of War and it's big enough, we might even want to engage them as research partners, perish the thought.

By the way, we also need to be careful not to get so caught up in resource denial that we get neighbors mad at us (except maybe if we're in a strong enough position that we want them to pick a fight). Going deep into another civ's territory to found a city where we can see a resource they can't, for example, would be asking for trouble, especially if we already have other supplies of the same resource.

	03-12-2002 14:52									#16
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I like where this discussion is going. It is much better for us to maintain this level of alertness to the situation around us. The way other teams percieve us is much more real than the AI, and is much more prone to going up and down and so on. Relations will weaken and strengthen, although not necessarily in that order...

The persons who made reference to a "Gathering Storm superiority" were Panzer32 of the Glory of War (who is 1 of their 2 ambassadors) and Spiffor (of the Legolanders). This was mostly referenced to and was not the subject of the whole conversation (we mostly just through out some universal diplomatic ideas).

The reason I mentioned it here was because, obviously, the opinions of the other teams (without knowing our location or power, etc) already had a slight opinion of what they think is to come, and this may put them on guard, much the same as the Glory of War put alot of people on guard when they announced they would be a mercenary nation.

I realize that the office of the Foreign Ministry has a huge task ahead of them in swaying popular opinion that we may be too powerful, or intimidating to the rest of the teams, etc. We want to be perceived (mostly) as honorable, not overpowering, relatively non-threatening, and friendly.

From what I've read in our private forums the teams we seem to think we may get along with best are the Legolanders and the Roleplayers as the top two. Depends all on location in the game, which we'll find out, but I think it would be in our best interests to strike up good relations with them.

The Roleplayers seem to share some of our strength in numbers and talent, although all the teams have some pretty good players on them. Good relations with them would help us alot.

NYE, I agree with the above what you have said, the list of suggestions pertaining to our behavior. I was thinking of posting a similar list earlier but never got to it in time.

I believe the Great Embassy shall also have to hold a set of standards to abide by that help us not to present ourselves in poor light...

	03-12-2002 16:53									#17
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Well, I agree with most of the ideas on this thread, certainly we need to build on our diplo situation. I hope I'll be able to do my share with the legos, but so far the contact seems to be friendly. A whole lot is going to depend on our starting position, though, which civs are going to feel threatened, and which civs are not.

I do hope that even if we are being feared as 'superior', no civ sees us as super aggressive. This, IMHO, would be worse, so we should carefully look out for aggressiveness. I agree: jump in on wars will be less bad then starting them ourselves.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 17:34									#18
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nice introduction btw, DeepO
(to Lego I mean )

quote: From what I've read in our private forums the teams we seem to think we may get along with best are the Legolanders and the Roleplayers as the top two.

Why do keep forgetting the two other teams (vox & demo) ??
Especially the latter holds a couple of options as far as diplomacy goes.
And it is a good team too IMO (tactical and strategical)

Vox is the uncertain element here, isn't it.

	03-12-2002 17:44									#19
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Vox is in no way uncertain... unstable, right, but uncertain? I hope they will keep the internal arguments under control long enough for another team to help them out of this game... I don't think any team is going to assist them... there are no AIs around to bash, but we have Vox

DeepO

	03-12-2002 19:48									#20
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(Spiffor) You're playing in the PtW DG IIRC ?
(Shiber) yes
(Shiber) storm
(Spiffor) Ah Yes. I guess it must be interesting to be in the strategy wizards team :)

Last edited by Shiber on 03-12-2002 at 19:54

	03-12-2002 20:19									#21
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Does that make NYE the Grand Wizard? Err... nevermind.

I would very much like to cultivate a real ally in this game. A trusted friend, even. I have never had that experience in SP Civ. It is something I've always thought that SP lacked, to its detriment.

Speaking of what to do if we're near GoW... well, I think it's pretty obvious. I would advocate an all-out attack as soon as we can muster superiority (I would prefer it with swordsmen, but a despotic GA is an acceptable price for the destruction of an bunch of warmongers playing China). There just isn't much choice there, really. We have the advantage in the mid-to-late ancient age, due to our UU, whereas they have the advantage in the early ancient age and the middle ages, due to starting with warrior code and then their Riders. Our industriousness cancels out.

-Arrian

	04-12-2002 03:07									#22
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This thread reminds me of Machiavelli (sp?). He is often misquoted, or rather selectively quoted.

What he said, in full, was that it is best to be both loved and feared, but if you must pick between the two, go with fear.

-Arrian

	04-12-2002 03:18									#23
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true, very true

but you have to make you are not 'somewhat loved' and or 'somewhat feared'. It has to be absolute.

	04-12-2002 09:02									#24
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I'm new to MP... but I will say that I certainly don;t trust 'love.'

	04-12-2002 10:34									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I'm new to MP... but I will say that I certainly don;t trust 'love.'

On the other hand, it's a whole lot better than being hated.

	05-12-2002 20:28									#26
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does this mean I have to stop sending threatening emails to trip?

	05-12-2002 20:45									#27
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no, you can still send them, just sign them all 'GhengisFarb'.

	06-12-2002 07:28									#28
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Some new Foreign Ministry information posted in the Lux Invicta Intelligence thread, I suggest you all check it out.

I am sending the LOGS from my discussion to the gatheringstorm email. I suggest you all take a look.

	06-12-2002 07:38									#29
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Oops, the logs are missing. Will have to contact AdmiralPJ to get his copy and posted again. Sorry all. Will fix asap.

	06-12-2002 12:40									#30
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Putting those logs there is an excellent idea Meshelic!