03-12-2002 13:51									#1
	AI Stubbornness Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've only been playing for a month, and I'm only playing my first game at Regent, but I've never seen anything like this (and it's certainly a big change from Civ2):

I share a continent with the French; I'm the #1 Civ, they're number 3 or 4. We've been friendly the whole game, and allies a couple of times. Out of the blue they attack, very cleverly; three of my cities are razed in quick succession before the turn is over. But I do have a decent military (badly positioned, apparently ), and an MPP with the English, who have the largest army going. It takes a while, but eventually the French empire is reduced from 20 cities to 3, and those 3 all have my tanks stacked on their doorstep.

Here's the thing: Not once in the 20 or so turns that this took did the French come asking for a peace treaty. Is the AI programmed for suicide? It seems to me very bizarre, from both a gameplay and realism point of view, that they would fight on and on in a war where they're getting creamed. What's the deal with that?

	03-12-2002 13:58									#2
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This never happened to me , it could be that it's just a coincidence. Maybe they were holding some grudges over a deal that you may have broken in the past. Did you try to contact them? Did they refuse? One thing is for sure this is not the norm.

So long...

	03-12-2002 15:07									#3
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I don't know Rufus, I have had an AI on its knees (funny enough the french again) and it never once came to the table by itself.
On the odd occasion i called them to see what they would offer for a settlement (knowing full well i wouldn't take it) they offered very little.

I had wiped out most of its military (attacking units) in the first three turns and had stolen/obliterated its oil and Aluminium supplies (no Tanks no MA's no MI's) still they never surrendered.

They kept pumping out regular infantry until the very end.

	03-12-2002 15:37									#4
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It might just be level-induced dumbness.

I am also playing against the French. We warred early on (they declared out of the blue - we were not neighbours) which ended quickly. Then we were peaceable and friendly, with a little trade, for about 2000 years. Then they were lured into an attack on me, by which time I was far ahead in tech.

After a few turns of bulding up some units and pillaging their iron and rubber, I stormed in and took one big city. I did not want a long war, offered peace for one of their cities (leaving them about 6 cities) and they took the deal.

	03-12-2002 15:40									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Lucarse I don't know Rufus, I have had an AI on its knees (funny enough the french again) and it never once came to the table by itself. On the odd occasion i called them to see what they would offer for a settlement (knowing full well i wouldn't take it) they offered very little. I had wiped out most of its military (attacking units) in the first three turns and had stolen/obliterated its oil and Aluminium supplies (no Tanks no MA's no MI's) still they never surrendered. They kept pumping out regular infantry until the very end.

This is very similar (just a bit earlier on the tech tree). In fact, the very first city I sacked cost them their only Iron supply, and one of the next few cost them their only Saltpeter (by which time I had the world-wide embargo in place); and yet they keep coming -- with longbows and horsemen!

I haven't bothered contacting them, because I don't want to annoy my English allies. But I really can't believe they haven't asked for a tete-a-tete. Maybe God told Joan not to .

And in answer to Pioneer: except for a couple of deals I turned down, there's nothing I've done to encourage a grudge; we've been pals, allies, and trading partners throughout the game. Quel strange...

	03-12-2002 23:39									#6
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This is quite common behavor since around 121 or 129. It was decided that the AI was being abused by having war decaled on it and whacking 1 or 2 cities and making peace for what ever you could get. This was corrected or rather over corrected. Now the AI will often not even pipe up and ask for peace as you annihilate it. You can offer/demand peace some times in this case.
The level does not have any impact I have this at Monarch and Emperor all the time. I can not say about Deity as I play so few games at that level.
PTW has the same characteristics.

	04-12-2002 00:47									#7
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Maybe the French aren't the people who surrender, they're the people who are conquered ...suddle difference.

Anyway, the AI is very stubborn when "surrendering". I can usually get cash and maps out of them no problem, but for techs I have to take out the big can of whiparse.

	04-12-2002 10:06									#8
	Re: AI Stubbornness Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly I've only been playing for a month, and I'm only playing my first game at Regent, but I've never seen anything like this (and it's certainly a big change from Civ2): I share a continent with the French; I'm the #1 Civ, they're number 3 or 4. We've been friendly the whole game, and allies a couple of times. Out of the blue they attack, very cleverly; three of my cities are razed in quick succession before the turn is over. But I do have a decent military (badly positioned, apparently ), and an MPP with the English, who have the largest army going. It takes a while, but eventually the French empire is reduced from 20 cities to 3, and those 3 all have my tanks stacked on their doorstep. Here's the thing: Not once in the 20 or so turns that this took did the French come asking for a peace treaty. Is the AI programmed for suicide? It seems to me very bizarre, from both a gameplay and realism point of view, that they would fight on and on in a war where they're getting creamed. What's the deal with that?

It is another form of AI cheat to screw the human.

I once had a smaller Roman civ on the other side of a large continent out of the blue declare war on me for no reason. It must have taken him a dozen or more turns to reach me, and then he attacks, and is easily beaten. Fifteen turns later he is back for another beating. Soon after he asks for peace. Absurd.

I once fought an Aztec civ that would not make peace. I have said all year some civs are progammed for suicide as they are working with their AI civs against the human. One civ sacrifices itself to weaken the human.

BTW, it is often crucial for the human to exterminate entire civs in a long and tedious war to prevent that Culture Flipping nonsense.

"Realism"? Don't look for it with Civ 3.

	04-12-2002 10:33									#9
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Some civs are so aggressive that it sometimes gets suicidal. I'm thinking Zulu, Aztecs, Romans, Germans. How often do these civs make it to the modern age in your games?

A way to fix this is to lower theri aggression levels in the editor.

Rufus that does sound strange, but my guess is that your armed forces were indeed very badly positioned. Three cities razed in one turn? Ouch! but, the fact is you shouldn't have been so vulnerable in the first place. They must have been fairly close to the French border, and they must have had small garrisons: I'm guessing no more than 2 or 3 defenders in each, right? The fact is, they were too much of a temptation. Maybe they contained luxury or strategic resources? Guard your border cities.

You can't reasonably wrap your hand in bacon and then get pissed when your dog bites it.

	04-12-2002 13:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by MiloMilo Rufus that does sound strange, but my guess is that your armed forces were indeed very badly positioned. Three cities razed in one turn? Ouch! but, the fact is you shouldn't have been so vulnerable in the first place. They must have been fairly close to the French border, and they must have had small garrisons: I'm guessing no more than 2 or 3 defenders in each, right? The fact is, they were too much of a temptation. Maybe they contained luxury or strategic resources? Guard your border cities. You can't reasonably wrap your hand in bacon and then get pissed when your dog bites it.

No argument here; I'm a lousy warmonger and a worse micromanager, and just wasn't paying attention. Luckily, they were 3 pretty crappy cities (small, lousy land, few improvements), so they weren't much missed. I'm not that surprised that the French struck; I'm just still stunned that they didn't cry "Uncle" once I paid them back with loan-shark-size interest.

	04-12-2002 14:56									#11
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I've seen this happen quite a lot in Civ2 and SMAC, but I haven't seen it yet in Civ3. Always towrds the end of the game, one or more AIs would declare war out of the blue, get pounded, yet even when they had absolutely no units left and were down to their last city they still refused to make peace and kept raving about how they will destroy me.
It was annoying at first, but now I have changed tactics to turn warmonger in the late game to accomodate for this "feature" and I must say it's fun.

	04-12-2002 19:26									#12
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They're French, they can't help it.

	04-12-2002 19:34									#13
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Civ2 AI's were way too aggressive for their own good. The minute they build ONE offensive unit they would attack right away. Suicidal maniacs.

The civ3 AI is a bit smarter. It's still stubborn to the extreme but not as bad as civ2. I've seen that it's stubborness appears mostly when you want gold/tech to make peace. If you just want to make peace they agree more easily.

	04-12-2002 19:53									#14
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Vmxa1, "I can not say about Deity as I play so few games at that level."

IMO, PTW deity level shows the behavior you guys are talking about in spades.

Two games ago, the Vikings and Egypt (my civ) were the only two civs left after endless wars which Egypt stayed mostly out of. Egypt was about 5 techs ahead in the early modern era (believe it or not) and began to nuke the Vikes every second turn. Not only would they not make peace as their civ was reduced to rubble, they constantly demanded a tech from Egypt.

Next game, early on, Russia was a desert civ next to Egypt. As the chariots rolled up Russian cities, Egypt regularly asked for a couple of techs. Egypt was way behind in the early going, had extorted a couple of techs from France, and wanted to oscillate over to England to take a couple of cities and more tech. So, Russia could have stopped the war any turn with a couple of cheap techs that were way behind the learning curve. But they never would agree to that until they were ground down to only one city.

BTW, I think deity is easier now. The AI are so warlike that they don't build as much and don't research as fast, at least in the games I've played so far. The second game is a 16 civ affair and you would think at least some civs would have stayed peaceful and taken a large tech lead on the warmongers. Not so.

	04-12-2002 21:19									#15
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vxma1 is correct. AI seldom offers techs now and is very stingy in offerings. This does sound like a Firaxis overcorrect.

== PF

	14-12-2002 06:54									#16
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They never come crawling to me early on, but in later, longer, spaced out wars, they will often come asking for peace. I'll often screw them and wipe out whatever is left of them. They always seem so cute then.

	15-12-2002 08:39									#17
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The AI is stubborn and stupid. I had Russia reduced to one unit in one city...they refused to see my envoy...so I destroyed them. Also, out of all the games I played, and I played many, I never once was seriously attacked by an enemy that was far away. Heck, I build lots of troops, transports, and other various ships so that when I finally do reach there cities I have enough power to take at least one of there costal cities...the AI has never tried doing that to me.

	15-12-2002 11:37									#18
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In my current PTW 1.14 Regent game, the Romans asked for peace after I took only a couple of their cities. I got multiple techs in the bargain.

Some time later I attacked them again and they asked to parley when they were down to 1 or 2 cities (I refused this time). THEY had asked, both times.

There probably aren't any hard triggers. Probably a random thing, based on various aspects of the situation.

	16-12-2002 06:46									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Bonaparte The AI is stubborn and stupid. I had Russia reduced to one unit in one city...they refused to see my envoy...so I destroyed them.

Umh, had they given you anything, perhaps some technology, they would merely make it easier for you to destroy them later. Might as well be destroyed now and give you nothing.

You would go back and attack them again later would you not? After constantly bullying them for regular tributes of gold, technology and maps. Perhaps the AI would prefer to go down fighting rather then live on as your bootlicker.

I would not say the AI is stubborn and stupid. I would say the AI opponent should give you nothing that would materially increase your capacity to destroy it in your (inevitable) next war of aggression.

Perhaps the people complaining in this thread expect the AI to negotiate with the human player in the manner of Chamberlain at Berchtesgaden?

	16-12-2002 11:29									#20
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quote: Originally posted by peterfharris Perhaps the people complaining in this thread expect the AI to negotiate with the human player in the manner of Chamberlain at Berchtesgaden?

I think you mean at MUNICH, although your point is unclear at best.

I would expect a sensible AI to negotiate reasonably, and NOT to be eager to commit suicide by making wild demands even when it is being overrun by an invading enemy force. Also, after I take several of his cities, I expect the idiot to see me, not to ignore me.

I expect the AI to, when six resources are added into a deal with another civ AS A FREE BONUS, to NOT then insult the generous civ and cancel the entire deal. It is stupid, like this AI.

	16-12-2002 12:33									#21
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I think we can agree it has it flaws. They made the AI unreasonablely unwilling to talk turkey when it is getting pasted. They did that becasue it was too easy to shake it down, they went to far. Now it is part of the game, no big deal.

	16-12-2002 13:57									#22
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It's not perfect but it's one of the best I have seen. And I have never seen the AI turn down a good offer, unless giving vital military tech to avoid destruction is considered a good offer.

	16-12-2002 20:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle I think you mean at MUNICH, although your point is unclear at best. I would expect a sensible AI to ........, I expect the idiot to see me, not to ignore me. I expect the AI to, when six resourc........ It is stupid, like this AI.

I think your general approach to CIV 3 discussions is unreasonable at best.

I think it is unreasonable to expect the AI to act like a perfectly believable human player in all given situations .

I would expect a sensible CIV-gamer to recoginse the difficulties of delivering a challenging in-game AI.

edit for spelling

	16-12-2002 21:50									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

My biggest problem with negotiations to end a war is that you cannot demand resources/luxuries as part of the deal. If I go to war to get a certain resource, I'm only going to end it when that resource is mine.

	19-12-2002 00:52									#25
	AI stupidity Put an end to popups!

The funniest thing I seen was my first Diety game that I made into the modern era. Regicide, all victory settings on, random settings,Carthaginians, modern era, 10 techs behind, at war with the two superpowers America and Iroquois. ME fighting MA with about 50 artillary and 20 bombers. France gets in the war with about 10 MA showing up on besieged Washington at the same time I hooked up newly aquired aluminum and upgraded about 30 tanks to MA that I put in the fray. I figure I need one turn to complete the destruction of all roads and bomb the city down so I can take it without mass losses. Going to let France my new alley hit them also to help take the city. Next turn loose space race to America.
Decide to reload and play with the game. I hit Washington with everythong I got instead of waiting the turn for one more bombardment. I hit them with 1 MA army 38 MA 48 ME and knock him down to Abe Lincoln only defending and I have 2 cavelry left that can hit him.
I call him up and ask for peace for techs. He still has a road. He can still rush in defenders for the emminant French attack and his space ship is still intack. He wouldn't even give me one teck. I had 7 MA 12 ME left after this assault.
I take him and next turn loose to France Space Race. Very enjoyable game. Was a whole era behind the whole game due to poor jungle,rescourse, and luxery start.
Still haven't won on Diety. Never played Emperor