03-12-2002 15:07									#1
	Nonviolent Emperor Win Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

These days, I'm a total warmonger at Emperor and above. I just don't feel I can afford not to extort tech from the AI players. Imagine my surprise, then, when I recently won a game with only minor skirmishes, and without extorting a single tech from another player.

Partially this was due to an extraordinary start. The initial location isn't amazing, no hordes of cattle or anything like that. However, I was on a fairly large island all alone. I had enough room to expand to roughly 15 cities on a Standard size map without fighting anyone. More, all the other civs seem limited by neighbors to about 6-7 cities each.

I also had several rivers and no jungles or deserts nearby. Many of my cities were able to reach size 7+ without buying aquaducts.

On the negative side, the entire landmass had only 1 luxury type, Incense.

Normally I consider being isolated a bad start, but in this case I decided go ahead with rapid expansion to see what would happen. I did find out that I was alone well before I was ready to shift to my normal war mode, so I just continued to pump out settlers instead of shifting to barracks and military units.

I fought several serious skirmishes with barbarians, but used only Warriors for the most part. They're very cheap and expendible, so I wasn't diverting resources from expanding. This is a bad idea at Deity, but the mild (25%) advantage over barbarians at Emperor plus the 3 (regular) vs 2 (conscript) advantage was enough.

About midway through my expansion I diverted one city to producing a Wonder. Eventually this became the Great Library, which I hardly ever manage to build. Usually I steal it.

I was able to build the Great Library because I pumped the city building it up to size 12 (it was on a river) with population transferred from other cities via workers and settlers. I ran with 40% luxuries for quite some time to keep that city 100% productive.

This, combined with the enough freedom to build 2 city cores (one around my palace, one around my Forbidden Palace), won me the game.

I focused on researching to Construction once I knew I was isolated, which I was able to trade for Literature once the AI galleys came nosing around. Getting the Great Library allowed me to keep up in tech while pumping everything into moneymaking and marketplaces. When the Great Library gave out, I burned through that money on 100% research to get a short-term tech lead, which I parlayed through trades to money to support my tech lead.

I did have one bad period, about 6 turns before I built the Great Library, when France declared war on me, and then proceeded to bribe England, Korea, and Zululand to declare war. Fortunately, they landed only small ineffectual token forces, which my tiny military was able to handle. Eventually everyone got tired and offered peace.

This did have the nice benefit allowing me to exactly time my Golden Age. I waited until the Great Library gave me Republic, switched, and then moved a couple of Legions I'd been keeping away from the enemy troops over to attack and trigger my Golden Age.

The tech trading really snowballed by the time I hit the early industrial age, much as I recall it doing before the 1.17f patch. I recall at one point I was spending 900 gold per turn for research, and the AI civs were giving me 800 gold per turn. I was essentially nearly completely funding research with AI gold, so nearly all of my gold production went to savings, despite being at 100% science. I ended the game with over 20,000 gold in the bank.

There I was one civ with a comparable number of cities, Greece, by the time the game ended, but for the most part I had a lock on total science and shields produced for most of the game. That, combined with vigorous tech trading, was enough for victory.

I could have gone any number of routes for victory - conquest, space race, etc - but ended up calling it as quickly as possible with a Diplomatic victory. Normally that's an out for weak civs, but I just didn't want to go through the motions of finishing it when I had such an overwhelming advantage at game end. I just parcelled out lots of money for bribes and got everyone up to Gracious.

I found it interesting to discover you don't have to fight to win at Emperor, provided you get the Great Library and have enough room for a competitive infrastructure.

- Gus

	03-12-2002 20:06									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Great game, Gus! I would have assumed that an isolated start at Emporer level would make war essential. Sounds like pumping a wonder city and grabbing the Great Library was a bold gambit and the turning point of the game.
Hmmm.... Rome as an island continent of peaceful builders, winning on a UN vote? Talk about counter-historical!

	03-12-2002 21:25									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

On my current Emperor level game I didn't even have a skirimish at all with the AI on my contientant and have a decisive lead. And prior to the modern era, I only had one skirimish at all on a tiny map. (I'm China, the neighboring AI is Japan, the Aztecs beat out the Irq. in the other landmass early on)

I didn't even build the Great Libary. What I did do was quickly settle some excelent land for commerce. 5 of my 10 cities were founded along a river. (2 Rivers flowing thru my territory), and also 8 of these 10 cities were along the coast. This is about 1/6th the land mass in the game.

I started science at 20% and droped it to 10% as soon as I could do so while still having a beaker. The Ancient era wonder I built was Colosus. About 1/3rd of the way thru the middle ages my Forbidden Palace was complete, and I turned on research and quickly gained a big tech lead over the AIs. About the same time, the Aztecs landed a Swordmen which I got rid of with a Rider to trigure my GA which allowed me to build both middle age science boosting wonders.

I'm currently punishing the Aztecs for their invasion (which was easily put down) and have just razed their inital capital. (Too high a flipping risk due to their capital having had 19 citizens + 2 wonders and being well outside bomber range.)
[The two wonders they had there were Leos [worthless since I've already upgraded everythign] and the Pyraimds [also worthless, I DON'T want cities I have on that landmass to grow that fast at this time.]

The most important thing to have within your territory is rivers for peaceful games on the Emperor level. If your neighbor has the rivers instead, you need to conquer them.

	03-12-2002 21:34									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I knew somebody would come away from the darkside eventually.

	04-12-2002 00:04									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I didn't even build the Great Libary. What I did do was quickly settle some excelent land for commerce. I started science at 20% and droped it to 10% as soon as I could do so while still having a beaker. The Ancient era wonder I built was Colosus. About 1/3rd of the way thru the middle ages my Forbidden Palace was complete, and I turned on research and quickly gained a big tech lead over the AIs

How did you stay current on tech before pushing for the lead in the Middle Ages at 10% science? Did you buy all the techs for gold?

I did pretty well trading until the AI civs met each other, after that they reserved all the best deals for each other, as usual. That's why I saw the Great Library as being crucial.

quote: The most important thing to have within your territory is rivers for peaceful games on the Emperor level. If your neighbor has the rivers instead, you need to conquer them.

I think you're correct. I reloaded my autosave from that game, and I had 32 river tiles in my territory and 19 cities at game end. One city was a late build, but the rest had been there from the late Ancient period at least. Greece, the number 2 civ, had 16 river tiles and 14 cities in their core area, plus a bunch of worthless overseas colonies. The Zulus had a similar number.

Only the Iroquois had close to the same river coverage (24 tiles) but their overall core area was much smaller, supporting only 9 cities.

I'd say there were two key points to out researching the AI, having enough space to have both Palace and FP cores, and good river coverage of the core cities for an effective 100% boost in research in Despotism and 50% in Republic.

- Gus

	04-12-2002 00:36									#6
	Got spare money?

I have played numerous peaceful games on Emperor under 1.29f -- "peaceful" in the sense that I didn't do much conquering, if any, even though I might have been engaged in several wars. Some good luck on starting terrain seems needed, but I think such games turn more on trading and diplomatic skills -- a knack for manipulating the AI civs to keep from allowing one dominant AI civ to emerge has seemed most important in my peaceful games.

I think punkbass2000 frequently plays (and wins) peaceful Deity games (and posted a few examples some time ago).

I haven't played enough PTW yet to say, but it feels more difficult than vanilla Civ, and I haven't had as much luck securing a comfortable "coast to victory" position without more warfare than I might otherwise require under vanilla Civ. Still looking for my first peaceful Emperor win on PTW.

Catt

	04-12-2002 03:07									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've tried to play peacefully but they just keep dragging my back in. Current game.

England - Was my Southern neighbor. They keep declaring war on me and they had Iron which my Celtic fellows were missing. So I kinda of horse rushed them.

Spain - Was my Northern neighbor. We were great friends and they were between me and the Vikings (who keep declaring war on me) and France. I had a huge upgraded Knight army and no one to fight. I felt bad about that one.

Vikings - They hated everyone. I was the only person at peace with them. France was not fighting very well. I also happened to have roughly 100 artillery, and tons of upgraded leftover Calvary. So I kinda of showed everyone else how to take care of the Vikings.

France - I was 3 turns from building the internet for my first time when my good friends built it first. That kinda of ticked me off so I took my 77 MA, 100 Art, 34 Calvary, and other misc units to commit the largest ROP violation I had ever done. I took them in one turn which was good since they had stockpiled some ICBMs

Now you maybe thinking this doesn't sound that peaceful, but I never razed a single city and thats got to count for something

	04-12-2002 03:24									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Since it was two contientants with a 2:2 split, in early game, I just called up my neighbor every 10 turns to see what he had that was new and bought it as cheaply as possible with as much of it in GPT so that if Japan had chosen to be violent, I wouldn't have to finish paying for the techs I'd bought.

I also got one or two free techs for goody huts which I instantly sold to Japan.

I also did some exploring with a Galley and sold maps after I finished settling my land and was the first to make contact with the other AIs there. (Initally 2). Those AIs were at exactly the same level as Japan. After my maps reveled them starting to get chose to each other, I sold the contacts for as much money as possible. I think I lost my Galley via sinking the turn I discovered them, but it was worth it. Sometime later the 2 AIs on the other contienant starting fighting and that didn't end until the Aztecs got complete control of that landmass. That was followed by a long war between the Aztecs & Japan that stalemated due to neither of them able to keep a beachhead for more than a couple of turns after I had started to pull ahead in techs that greatly increased my lead.

quote: Originally posted by GusSmed How did you stay current on tech before pushing for the lead in the Middle Ages at 10% science? Did you buy all the techs for gold? I did pretty well trading until the AI civs met each other, after that they reserved all the best deals for each other, as usual. That's why I saw the Great Library as being crucial. I'd say there were two key points to out researching the AI, having enough space to have both Palace and FP cores, and good river coverage of the core cities for an effective 100% boost in research in Despotism and 50% in Republic. - Gus

	04-12-2002 07:06									#9
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Catt Still looking for my first peaceful Emperor win on PTW.

Just to be clear, I'm playing PTW version 1.14f. I almost wish they'd started PTW versions at 2.0, so they wouldn't be confused with Civ 3 versions. After all, PTW 1.14f is later than Civ 3 1.29f.

- Gus

	04-12-2002 09:11									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 I knew somebody would come away from the darkside eventually.

NO NO NO!!!

Just kidding... since the 'no-military' AU game, I've been waiting to see more peacemonger strategies.

I haven't had time to really play enough games this way yet, but winning through research, trade, and diplomacy is (I think) actually more sophisticated than through war (the easiest Pillar).

	04-12-2002 19:19									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Theseus winning through research, trade, and diplomacy is (I think) actually more sophisticated than through war (the easiest Pillar).

Yeah, but its not as fun IMO

	04-12-2002 19:58									#12
	Nice job Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Gus,

Nice job going "counter" to your natural strats and pulling off a fine peaceful emperor win :b

A game that might be of interest if you guys haven't seen it was a succession game, Emperor diff, where we chose to stay as isolated as possible and had a decent sized frozen tundra island to work with 8-\

For that game and variant, the Great Library was the game winning move. Due to our isolation, we got QUITE a nice list of techs when we finally contacted a second civ....

"1240AD: We receive the following eighteen techs from the Library:

Monarchy
Feudalism
Engineering
Theology
Chivalry
Invention
Printing Press
Education
Gunpowder
Music Theory
Astronomy
Chemistry
Banking
Navigation
Democracy
Economics
Metallurgy
Free Artistry

Cuba now FULLY up to date on all known technology."

Not your typical Great Library list...
(Our civ was named Cuba but it was a simple rename of the Bablyons)

The game is at: (link is to pg 3 where these techs appear)
Cuban Isolationists

I'm currently heading the "other way", exploring the dark side, and have come recently to Apolyton to read all this good stuff on archer and sword rushing Also to pick up some tips on Vikings - our current succession game has JUST hit invention and is about to get VERY interesting! It's in Deity, no less...
The Sea is a Harsh Mistress

Alas, that one was started in v1.04, so we did NOT get to prebuild Zerkers with archers. Just as invention hit we finished laying down the smack on the Celts, wiping out what was once the world's big powerhouse. (They lacked just one LITTLE thing... Iron! )
We're planning a Mongol invasion with Zerks, (going to the new superpower rather than for the low hanging Ottoman fruit !?) and I can't wait to see how it turns out!

Charis

	04-12-2002 20:23									#13
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Theseus . . . since the 'no-military' AU game . . .

FYI, the link to AU 102, a game a bunch of us played with the restriction of building no military units whatsoever (makes for a pretty peaceful game ) is HERE.

Catt

	05-12-2002 22:48									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Charis: a jaw-dropping list! So the Library dumps everything on you, even post-education techs (since you are only just getting "educat"-ed )
Speaking as a long-time lurker over there, the succession games make great reading!

Oh, and not that you need my advice, but with the zerkers, definitely do damage to the most powerful civ on the board. No point in wasting time picking off "low-hanging fruit" with such a devastatingly powerful strategic advantage, unless it fits perfectly into an expansion/conquest scheme.

	06-12-2002 00:20									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I knew somebody would come away from the darkside eventually.

quote: NO NO NO!!!

Theseus: I am here to take his place. I promise I will kill anything. I won't let you down.

	06-12-2002 02:13									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I looked at the time stamps, back in Feburary, It's possible that the rules regarding the Great Libary have changed since then.

	06-12-2002 11:28									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In every of my attempt to play peacefully, I was frustrated by poor starting positions or aggressive neighbors. Somehow I always ended up on the main continent where 6+ civs are jammed together.

	06-12-2002 21:02									#18
	Great Library Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Great Library will expire at the *END* of the turn in which YOU learn Education. With that monster list, we only knew one other civ for a loooooong time, and when contacts came and there were now 'two' civs known with the tech, eligible for the Great Library, they came out like a flood.

It works like this in all patches of Civ 3, nothing new.

@RobberBaron - I think you're right on hitting the most powerful civs first, actually. Especially since there are only two major powers in the game. (And thanks for the nice lurker comments :P )

To those reading the viking info here and not the game, after a very very painful turn last night, I can very definitely advocate *razing* and not trying to hold cities playing with Berzerk Vikings.

The game also agreed with other people saying the normal city bonuses for city size hold for amphib invasions. It was taking a pretty consistent seven Berzerks to take out four musket defenders in a size 12 city.

Charis