03-12-2002 19:15									#1
	Science poll : should we beeline for a Government Tech ? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK, it's poll time.

As you know it, there has been some debate about beelining to Republic or to Monarchy.
In my definition, "beeline" means to research only techs that lead to the particular regime we want (i.e, if we beeline for Republic, we don't waste time researching mapmaking or iron working), once Bronze working has been discovered.

We sure talked about beelining to Republic or Monarchy, but we didn't imagine : "what if we don't beeline at all ?"

I intend to post a poll in a few days on whether our aim is Republic or Monarchy (I think we should discuss it, now that we know our starting position), and I think this question should be answered first.

QUESTION :
Should we beeline for a Government Tech ?

Answers :
YES
NO
Too soon to tell*

The poll will close in 3 days

*"too soon to tell" doesn't mean "abstain" : it is an active statement that we lack info to decide on this.

	03-12-2002 19:20									#2
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I say YES.
Our starting position seems good for now, but it is likely we don't have much good land around Legopolis. A government change will mean a more intensive production (i.e, one tile will produce more). Since we risk to have only a small patch of good land, this intensivity is absolutely needed.
Plus, if we beeline for a new government, we can hope to trade it with our friends for a good price, and to acquire more riches and knowledge faster.
That would definitely give an edge to us.

	03-12-2002 19:31									#3
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Too early to decide, IMHO.

We probably have something like 10-15 turns to finish our research on Bronze Working. At that time, we will be much wiser about what our starting location is (meant globally) and whether we need a specific tech or are relatively free to beeline for Monarchy or Republic.

	03-12-2002 19:44									#4
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right. Sorry, but I've seen BW in 9 turns in the screenshots, which means we'd have to decide very quickly. Maybe I rush things a little, but I prefer we discuss too early rather than too late.
BTW, if you are interested in discussing the various merits of Monarchy and Republic, please go to that thread

This here thread is only intended to discuss whether we beeline or not, not the direction of ou beeline

	03-12-2002 19:50									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor right. Sorry, but I've seen BW in 9 turns in the screenshots, which means we'd have to decide very quickly. Maybe I rush things a little, but I prefer we discuss too early rather than too late. BTW, if you are interested in discussing the various merits of Monarchy and Republic, please go to that thread This here thread is only intended to discuss whether we beeline or not, not the direction of ou beeline

Spiffor, the 9 turn research was prior to replaying the turn without Accelerated Production on. Everything is slower now that the AP is off. I will post the current screenshots later today... It's just that I currently have some RL work to do - that's why I haven't done it already. Give me few hours, please.

	03-12-2002 20:11									#6
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It is too soon. We are not much wiser than 2 days ago, before the game has started. Let's wait until we discover BW and decide after that.

	03-12-2002 22:06									#7
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Hmm... too soon to tell. I'd like to see some more of the surrounding terrain before making a decision. The availability of good city sites can make a big difference in options.

	04-12-2002 04:40									#8
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A little too soon. Let's get some warriors out scouting first.

	04-12-2002 06:05									#9
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Too soon to tell, we need to explore more to find out how good or how dire our land situation is.

As well, as I mentioned in the Monarchy vs Republic thread, there are other techs not on the government paths that are critical such as Iron Working and The Wheel, not so much for their military units, but to uncover the Iron and Horse resources so that we are not settling blindly.

We also need to consider that unlike us, many of the other civs have cheaper buildings (especially the numerous religious civs) so we can't be too late on getting those "Building Techs" for Libraries and Temples.

	28-12-2002 21:39									#10
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Bump

We now know more of our surroundings, and pottery is 3 turns away. I'm bumping this discussion because I don't want to rush a decision when I'll have to meet one.

Most very early techs are ours now, and we have to decide between more expansive tehcs, hence we have to decide carefully

	29-12-2002 04:11									#11
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Going for Monarchy is very tempting, because we are only 2 techs (Mysticism+Polytheism) away from it. That would mean probably great trade deals and very probably the Hanging Gardens for us.

However, being (as it looks like) in the vecinity of the GoW, we should probably go for IW and/or the Wheel. If they were willing to trade these with us it would be great, but if they didn't, we are in trouble because they will aggresively settle the places where they see iron and/or horses.

I would say IW now, and later... we'll see.

	29-12-2002 16:26									#12
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Once East Coast City is built, IW should need about 21 turns to be completed (I should run a simulation for precise results), and horse / mysticism about 14 turns.

I'm not fond of researching IW right now, because we don't have much choice for our next city anyways (at least 14 turns away). Same thing for the wheel.

However, I'm tempted by writing too : even if I'd prefer monarchy for our government (since we'll have only 2 citizens born content, and will have at least 2 cities which don't need aqueduct to grow past size 6), writing would bring us the wonderful mapmaking, which could be a must if we are indeed stuck in a jungle island.
(plus, writing is on the path towards Republic, which is a traditional builder favorite)

	29-12-2002 19:17									#13
	yup, my choice would be Writing Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Once East Coast City is built, IW should need about 21 turns to be completed (I should run a simulation for precise results), and horse / mysticism about 14 turns. I'm not fond of researching IW right now, because we don't have much choice for our next city anyways (at least 14 turns away). Same thing for the wheel. However, I'm tempted by writing too : even if I'd prefer monarchy for our government (since we'll have only 2 citizens born content, and will have at least 2 cities which don't need aqueduct to grow past size 6), writing would bring us the wonderful mapmaking, which could be a must if we are indeed stuck in a jungle island. (plus, writing is on the path towards Republic, which is a traditional builder favorite)

Spiffor, I just quoted your post, since I wholeheartedly agree with you. I, too, would prefer not researching Wheel, nor Iron Working, since they do not bring any immediate advantage and would be highly unlikely to affect our third city placement anyway. I do agree that Writing is what we should choose now, primarily because of the Map Making tech. Also, as Alphabet was our almost exclusive starting tech, we are more likely to get Writing and then Map Making ahead of others, allowing us to build the corresponding GWs, if we choose to go for them, or make fine trade deals.

Also, we are likely to make contact with GoW soon - my guess is that IW and Wheel were high on their research list and we will be better off trading for them (offering Alphabet and possibly Writing), establishing a friendly relation with them.

Count my vote as one for Writing.

EDIT: even though I wrote Literature, I meant Writing, of course... ...corrected.

	29-12-2002 20:51									#14
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If the GoW decide to trade with us instead of fight with us, then IW and the Wheel are techs we most likely will get from them. In this case, going for writing is a fine choice. It gives us the choice to research Literature or Map Making, depending on the situation.

	29-12-2002 21:38									#15
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Maybe we should start thinking on the "guaranteed" trades the GoW is proposing to us (after exchanging the minimaps): Writing for IW and the Alphabet for the Wheel. Not bad, IMHO.

	30-12-2002 00:44									#16
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Tiberius and Vondrack,
I believe you are on the right track. I would vote for your suggested techs and for "guaranteed" trades.

	31-12-2002 09:05									#17
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Nuts I did not get to vote, but I think bee lining for government tech is a misstake.

	31-12-2002 14:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Nuts I did not get to vote, but I think bee lining for government tech is a misstake.

Don't worry, Jack... The poll was closed weeks ago. Spiffor just bumped the thread up, because it is a fine place to discuss our future research strategy, especially with respect to the gov tech beelining.

BTW, Spiffor, I believe it would be just the right time to either make a ministerial decision on our next research goal, seeing what the team response is, or post a poll. Pottery is just two turns away and turns are taking circa 40 hours each now.

	31-12-2002 14:16									#19
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Oh yeah and anther thing. We are losing money know because of the Settler we built. I was wondering after we get pottery do you guys want to change tax rate to avoid going into red untill we get the second City??

	31-12-2002 14:31									#20
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I think changing the tax rate now would affect the research time for Pottery (at least it would have done it one turn ago). The max. time we have to go in red is 2 turns; after tge discovery of Pottery we can change the tax slider to 80% to avoid losing money.

	31-12-2002 15:12									#21
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No need to worry about the budget. As soon as we found the second city, we will be back in black numbers again, since the settler will stop cosuming 1 gpt and the new city may even contribute to our gold income. Next turn, check the research slider, but unless it can be lowered a notch without delaying the discovery of Pottery, leave it as it is.

	01-01-2003 00:46									#22
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What Vondrack said.

As for the decision of next tech : Writing, except if it creates too much uproar in the team. Sliders at 100% once we begin to research writing.

Iron Working and The Wheel have been discarded because :
- GoW might want to trade these with us
- The locations for city #2 and city #3 are pretty much given, whether there are resources nearby or not.

- Mysticism has been discarded because getting monarchy doesn't seem to be our top priority right now

- Writing has been kept because of the numerous advantages it provides : access to mapmaking and to literature, ability to make embassies and to trade contacts. Also, since we're the only commercial Civ around, we might be the first ones with writing.

	01-01-2003 01:11									#23
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Wow! I just hope this trend lasts... this is already the second ministerial order today!

Spiffor, be so kind and put it into the Ministerial Orders thread, so that Tibi can easily grab it and put into the Guidelines thread.

Well, I know, it is bureaucracy... but still, we need to follow some sort of a system. Otherwise, it may be difficult for Jack to play the turn if he is in a hurry and has not enough time to read through all the threads we use for discussion.