03-12-2002 20:03									#1
	DIPLO: map trading Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Are we going to wait to trade until it's possible in-game?? If not, I have a few suggestions

(this is based on an idea from DeepO btw, mixed with Meshelics comments on how we are looked upon)

To get some real diplomacy going,(you could call it ally hunting ) and btw,
I think the best canditate for this are LEGO, what if we present our minimap to them.
We wouldn't be asking for anything in return, we present it as a gift, a token of goodwill if you want.
I have a hunch, they will return the favor anyway.
We could even grey the minimap out, so they would only know where we started.

It's probable safe to say that our team combines the most overall game knowledge,
so if they do send us their position,
it would be of more value to us then to them.

If this works out, there are a few more teams, that we could try this with.
Knowing most team starting positions could have some beneficial influence as far as science is concerned too.

We should be carefull, not to sound patronising though.

Comments
(please don't kill me )

	03-12-2002 20:14									#2
	Remove this text

Sounds very risky! This could backfire easily. Then again, if it does we can always claim that we sent the Legoland team a fake minimap. But that would backfire too once we start trading maps...
However, the prospect of conducting diplomacy before it is actually possible in-game is excellent!

	03-12-2002 20:24									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Though I'm all for fostering goodwill, I'm not sure this is the way to do it.

Sending them our starting spot could be seen as gloating... or just wierd and potentially devious.

I don't like it.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 20:47									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

well, that wasn't my idea completely, but I would definately keep both the initial minimap, and the starting pos before settling around as small change to make some deals. ATM, I would not give it to the other teams at all, as it surely would be considered gloating. But in a few turns, we might have something to bargain for, at which time it could become a possibility.

DeepO

	03-12-2002 20:52									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I would wait at least until we know the lay our land. too early would be too dangerous. imho

	04-12-2002 00:27									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think it goes against the spirit of the game to trade map or location information with civs we don't even have contact with, although it would be nice if the teams would discuss such matters so everyone plays by the same rules one way or the other.

Nathan

	04-12-2002 01:21									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Is the suggestion to send just our mini map, or just our main map (with mini map blacked out)?

btw, I am against EVER giving anything to do with our map to ANYONE for any reason. If we win a war, their map would be an absolute requirement for peace in my mind.

Geographical knowledge is extremely important in this game with humans. Imagine this... we have aquired maps of someone's homeland (through a successful war). Later war comes again. We would be the AI sending daggers directly at their vulnerable spots, while they flail around in the darkness looking for us.

I am currently in just such a game. I am in a very bad start location. On a small island with lots of desert and mountains. Quite a few plains as well, and some grassland (enough for 3 or 4 cities to feed off). I have another players entire home continent map (obtained from an AI). He, and the other human have no idea how vulnerable my position is/was and I packed cities in so my score was good for a long while. So they leave me alone and I am safe.

Soon I will be invulnerable on the home island until marines. Expensive, but park a foot slogger on every coastal tile et voila... Fortress Norseman (I am Vikings, hehe).

	04-12-2002 02:22									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ALVA - Don't worry I won't shoot you. I had mentioned earlier the prospect of map trading and after the response, I realized it wouldn't really be a smart idea. That's not to say that there aren't other ways to give gifts and become more friendly with other nations, just that the map trading way is far too risky in my opinion.

Think of it like this: If Legoland recieves our map (whichever one it may be, blacked out or not), they might mapwhore elsewhere, by going to Lux Invictica and saying "well the GS think we're good guys and gave us their map. So here you go, take it and kill them."
And we wouldn't have a clue where the Lux Invictans are coming from.....that would be really bad.

I'd say it's better to be perceived as a greater threat by our talent than to give away our location. Who knows, by then possibly every team may have an idea where we are and can thus send their troops our way. (not good). It is much better for them to fear us in the dark.

There are other better ways to gain friendship. Once we know who our neighbors are, then that is when we should decide who our friends should be.

	04-12-2002 03:14									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Got any better ideas!!!

ps: just a quick thought:
Why do you post here at 'Poly', and not at, let's say 'CfC'...Probably because you came here first.
After that, you saw no need to change.
Why am I saying this, if we can build a trust relation with any team first, it will have more value, then beeing the last one to knock on their doors
(just an introduction won't do btw )

So, we won't trade our map, what else have we got....
your turn

	04-12-2002 03:28									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I post at 'poly because I consider the strategy forum content to be of a higher quality most of the time. I found (lurked at) CfC first. The lion's share of credit (such as it is) for getting me to de-lurk goes to Vel.

On-topic, your point is a good one, that cosying up to a team early may pay off in the long run (kinda like those early temples some of us like).

-Arrian

	04-12-2002 09:20									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've been very busy at work, thus catching up in the evening... man, I love the concept-play!

This thread TOTALLY opened my mind to 'human diplomacy.'

* We organize against GoW NOW!

* We trade minimaps and or start-location screenshots with everyone who will, NOW!

Just ideas... any others?

	04-12-2002 10:31									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Perhaps mini-maps only. I still stand behind holding our world maps back.

But I suppose everything would have it's price. I would just hope our profit is worth the potential backlash's.

I agree with Theseus however, we must mobilize ourselves against the Glory of War. They are the outright warmongers, and the ones who pose the greatest threat as such. Whether their tactics can hold up in battle is a question that will probably be answered sooner than we think. I do recommend we take a hard stance against the Glory of War.

By taking a hard stance on the Glory of War, and yet still maintain an honorable position in the team community, (paint ourselves as the good guys opposing the evil hoards), I believe we can win out in this area.

	04-12-2002 11:00									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I still say no to anything to do with maps. A minimap has information on it. Lots of it.

I also think we should waity and see who is where before we go jumping to make enemies of anyone. We may be nowhere near GoW. In that case, why antagonise them?

BTW, we could easily be seen the bully in any fight with GoW too. They are not stupid re PR. Their start screen-shot thread was genius.

	04-12-2002 11:14									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Imagine what GoW could do if they started right next to us and got a hold of our minimap at this stage. Half our safety during the initial expansion phase depends on other civs' not knowing where we are to send an all-out attack our way.

	04-12-2002 12:41									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have to disagree with you Mesh. Taking a hard stance against GoW so early won't serve any good, and might be interpreted as sort of ploy, and cause mistrust by other teams.

As the GoW ambassador, i must state that UnOothodox is treating me respectfully, and so far has given me one important piece of information regarding their mercenary nature: As they will be a fuedal team, any power holders may accept any contract, meaning they might even fight against two opponents who war with eachother(!), and only if this will seem problematic enough, the high kind (GF) will intervene, which probably means the contract won't be accepted or even broken.

On the payment issue- they will be willing to accept any sort of it- Techs, Cities, gold, workers, and even "artillery"- which means the other team will allow GoW to capture X amount of it.

I still believe we can make use of them, before we march into their cities...

	04-12-2002 13:42									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm glad you're keeping an eye on them Zeit. That information is very helpful and could prove useful to us.

Let me clarify myself a little bit. When I said I recommended "taking a hard stance" against GoW, I do not mean that we should outright oppose them, just that we should consider them (for the time being, depending on location) "High Alert" and should monitor them carefully. The GoW is so willing to wage war all across the board, and they are led by many capable leaders. We must not underestimate them.

I wouldn't want us to appear as blatantly targeting any specific civ. That sheds some poor light on our rep and it's not in our best interests anyway. It'd be safe to say our diplomatic stance is cautious.

	04-12-2002 17:12									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, I was thinking on this yesterday, and perhaps there is a way to use this. At this time, it serves both sides if we knew the others location, and doesn't do any good. So, swapping minimaps doesn't seem to be so bad, especially not if we can use the one before we are settled. It hardly has any information on it, in our case it only has 9 tiles which aren't black. It changes once we got settled, and will certainly change when we are going scouting.

How I would go with this: The legos seem to be willing partners, or at least they aren't aggresive towards us. Why don't I propose a deal with them, to test them out. We could package it as a test-of-trust or something, in that we announce it as a secret deal, and ask that all information gained is to be kept between the two teams, other teams aren't even allowed to know there was a trade.
Then, we ask them to swap minimaps at 4000 BC. We quickly find out if they are close or not, we get some idea of the general layout of the land, but all very minimal. We would be able to see if they are on a coast or not. Not much is gained, not much is lost if we give this to them either, our minimap is the most general one you could imagine, nothing can be seen from that (expect the position of our capital, of course).

Further advantages are that this is kept outside the normal map trading in game (which I will strongly object to), so that this knowledge doesn't automatically go to another civ if they somehow get access to the lego world map. But most importantly, it is probably the only balanced trade possible in this game: we are exactly the same right now, and both teams gain just as much as they lose. It's only done because we want a better relation with them, not because we need it in a way.

I'd first go with the legos here, and after that try some other teams as well, especially the RPGers and demogyptica (if they have protected fora already).

DeepO

	04-12-2002 21:12									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Not much is gained, not much is lost if we give this to them either, our minimap is the most general one you could imagine, nothing can be seen from that (expect the position of our capital, of course).

I'm not sure you realize just how big an advantage knowing more or less the exact whereabouts of an enemy capital can be in planning an early attack. With enemies not knowing where we are, we can pretty much count on its taking some time for them to bring together a strike force after they find us. But if they know, they can assemble everything they have to attack us (assuming they're willing to neglect their own defenses). As long as Legoland keeps faith with us, there shouldn't be a problem, but if they don't.... And trading minimaps more widely would add to the danger.

Also, I question the propriety of exchanging such information prior to the discovery of Map Making. It would be good if the team leaders or representatives thereof could get together and hammer out definitive rules about whether "anything goes" with exchanging such information or whether we want to wait for Map Making (and, for that matter, whether it's acceptable to exchange maps or portions thereof outside the game mechanism).

Nathan

	04-12-2002 21:50									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I just gamed it out, and with three grassland with shield tiles, China can build a barracks, four archers, and a spearman by the time they build their second settler (and that's just in their capital). Note that this entire five-unit force would be all veterans. Maybe that explains a little better why I want to make sure GoW doesn't know where we are without wasting some time scouting if they start near us.

Nathan

	04-12-2002 23:59									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Nathan, I was certainly not going to give this information to the GoW! I am aware of the potential risk of giving away your position too early, however, that knive cuts both ways. It would be a sign of common trust if 2 teams could agree on this...

Plus, I strongly doubt that anyone other than the GoW is going to archer rush us, whether they know our capital or not. The legos certainly not... And even if they don't get the minimap, scouting with 5 units would quickly find us if we are close anyway...

I still don't know, I'm not saying we should do this, but I find it the debate worthy to discuss it. It is, in my mind, not a Yes / No thing of which you instantly see what is at stake, or can be won, it needs some thinking over. (at least from my side). It boils down to either going for safe isolation, or taking some risk, and possibly finding a game-long friend...

DeepO

	05-12-2002 01:02									#21
	Got spare money?

I would assume that this would not work for the Roleplay team until we at least get map making and established contact.

I say no map trading. The second we trade or give our map, then an opponent has a piece of information about us to sell. Unless it is an agreed upon trade and all act honorably, we will be in a worse position in regards to map knowledge. This idea is dangerous as our "enemies" can know too much at this time.

Mss

	05-12-2002 03:42									#22
	Support Apolyton

I know we aren't planning to give GoW our minimap, but once a cat is let out of a bag, there's no guaranteeing where it might decide to go. I wouldn't be too concerned with respect to the Legos (although my paranoia would still itch a bit), but the more people know a secret, the greater the risk that someone will compromise it.

As for the idea that five units could find us quickly, a symmetric search pattern would have some of their forces just as far away from them as we are, but in the opposite direction, while an asymmetric pattern would have a good chance of missing us entirely depending on what direction they focus on. Further, the need to guard the home cities against human opponents would make archers awfully expensive for exploration. But if they don't need to explore before they have a target, the prospects for gambling on an ultra-early rush become a lot better.

Nathan

	05-12-2002 04:01									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

How about, if we start by probing,
for example by asking and telling wich side of the map
we/they are located???
That way we don't give any vital info away,
but at least we get an idea where they are located.
(are they near us, or won't we see them until the late middleages)

	05-12-2002 04:10									#24
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by alva848 How about, if we start by probing, for example by asking and telling wich side of the map we/they are located??? That way we don't give any vital info away, but at least we get an idea where they are located. (are they near us, or won't we see them until the late middleages)

That sounds a lot more workable. Then if it looks like we might be neighbors, we can consider trading more precise information. (Assuming trading such information before Map Making is considered a legitimate practice.)

	05-12-2002 05:15									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Would people please stop looking for a way around the desires of many that the map not be traded in whole or in part, please?!

This is like a proposal with suicidal possibilities and trying to amend it slightly so it would be less suicidal. You reduce the odds from 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000, then you hit the 1 in 1000 number and 20 of us have flushed 100's of hours each.! Grrr!

I apologise, but I feel that little or no attention is being paid to the crux of the matter. Map information is more valuable than anything else in this game. If winning friends requires putting our heads in the noose, I would rather have no friends.

	05-12-2002 09:16									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Instead of just being a grump, let me propose a scenario.

We merely talk with people. In the course of talking we learn their general locale, and they ours. So some team finds out that we are in the South East corner of the mini map. Now, it turns out they are in the central area. GoW is beneath them and West of us.

Lego meets GoW. Lego does not like being the only civ in contact with GoW. Lego tells GoW that we are to their East so that GoW has something to distract them. Now 2 teams know where we are (roughly).

During the course of a few days and many chat room sessions, word spreads that we are where we are. Now GoW, and whoever is North of us, as well as anyone who is East of us knows roughly where we are.

Are these teams looking at each other the way they see us? If you were on Lux, would you be looking for an edge against us, or against Vox? Right, I think most other teams would put getting an edge against us quite high on their priority list. So how do they do that by just knowing that we are in the SE area?

Whenever they have a choice of which direction to send an explorer, whenever they have a roughly equal choice of where to send a settler, they would send them towards that hole on the map that is the Gathering Storm. We could have civs to the West, North, and East all sending more towards us than they ever would if they were blindly deciding.

Until we settle a lot of land, we cannot keep the explorers out. How could we? If they come through before we settle a site, they will see when and where we build that next city. They will get a much better idea of what needs be done if they ever come to blows with us. In short, they will gain an edge.

So, who really wants to send up flares?

	05-12-2002 13:21									#27
	Suffering from ads?

NYE I agree, how about we not even consider giving a part of our map away until another team approaches us with a worthwhile deal? And at that time, go on and decide from there what to do.

Maps are probably not worth trading away. There are other ways to trade with countries.

	05-12-2002 13:41									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Mesh, I would not trade our map, or any map information for anything. Keep in mind that knowledge of us is more valuable to others than knowledge of others to others, if that makes sense.

Wait. It will become apparent how valuable that information is. If others are fools, let us reap the harvest. Let us not plant for others.

	05-12-2002 15:36									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree with NYE on the map trade- we should try to avoid it as much as possible. We can't build trust by risking ourselves- that means we don't have enough trust to begin with (political remark: perhaps this was the problem with the oslo agreements-trust was not built before signing it, and wasn't built as fast as expected while implemented, so it was constantly violated by both sides). We can't built trust by just sharing power (=trading maps) this will only make each look more dangerous in the eyes of the other- which leads to distrust. We must have (or at least seem to) some common interests we can agree to work together towards (like each one having more luxuries=trading luxuries).

	05-12-2002 17:10									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hmmm... NYE, I take your point, however I don't fully agree with it. I think there is a big difference between map information, and maps themselves... But enough of that, I agree on your examples, and general idea of map trading.

But let me ask an other question then: how are we going to build trust with one of the teams, wich is not built on need itself? Of course, trading lux would be good, but that can't happen until later in the game, and the first thing you do it for is because you want the lux itself. Indeed, you trust the other party a little, but there is no risk, hence not the true trust you would earn by trading minimaps.

I consider this a problem: we will need allies, and I would very much like the idea of longterm allies, instead of just buying a friend when you need one. Starting with deals long before we really need them would be a good idea, in this respect... but other then the minimaps, I'm not sure what we could use that doesn't damage us if abused by the other party. Any suggestions?

DeepO