04-12-2002 09:17									#61
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If I may:


Mandatory Service is a lottery: You WILL serve, but you don't know whether there'll be a war on when you're doing it.

Conscription is also a lottery: You may not serve, but if you do, there's guaranteed to be a war on.

In other words, both involve chance - one with certain participation, but uncertain exposure to risk (war), and the other one with certain exposure to risk, but uncertain participation.

Truly, it's a pick your poison situation. Fortunately, I'm too old for either option

	04-12-2002 10:01									#62
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Mandatory Military Service and conscription are both fairly bad ideas, simply because motivation is one of the most important mental attributes of a good soldier, and forced service destroys this...the american military is the best in the world, and i think being an all volunteer force is one of the reasons why (all of th defense spending is another); conscripts would be a burden on the US military and it's combat effectiveness would go down

however, i would support Mandatory Civilian Service for all men and women with the arguments Rah offered being the reasons why we should have it...since it is Civilian service that also means that all of the physical requirements for military service wouldn't apply, so all but the most seriously handicap people could then serve...of course if you did join the military then you should be exempt from civilian service

	04-12-2002 10:05									#63
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I also oppose Mandatory Civilian Service. That's slavery, same as Mandatory Military Service.

	04-12-2002 10:27									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Wow, what a truly idiotic statement. Civilians are cowards who can't fight for their beliefs, whatever they are.

Two wrongs dont make a right.....and two idiotic-blanketing statements dont make an intelligent, reasonable statement either.

ACK!

	04-12-2002 12:58									#65
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I also oppose Mandatory Civilian Service. That's slavery, same as Mandatory Military Service.

You're free to leave if you don't like it. I hear Air Somalia has non-stop flights.

Actually, I semi-agree (not with the slavery tag) that the Federal government has no authority to impose civilian national service, but state governments certainly do within most of their constitutions.

	04-12-2002 14:48									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Solver I despise mandatory service. Immoral, barbaric and brutal. It steals your freedom, you're basically put in jail. You don't have the right to choose where you live, or whatever. Bad things happen during it. You can get beat up/raped by other serving people, if they grow to dislike you. I wouldn't shoot anyone. Even if the independence of my country depended on it. I have luckily not been in such a situation, but I don't believe I could shoot.

You don't need to shoot. I'll shoot, but you'll have to be Johnny on the spot with the ammunition. Wait, where have I heard this before?

	04-12-2002 19:16									#67
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MtG, we've been down this gravelly ass road so many times.
Some just want; and have a rude awakening in store for them.

	04-12-2002 20:02									#68
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More argument for Military service:
It is one more safeguard for democracy. It's harder to attempt a military coup with civilians among your troops.
It's harder to use the army against strikers (Are you sure they will shoot on their co-worker?).
It's harder to manipulate the government with neutral observers inside the army's administration.

	04-12-2002 20:49									#69
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In modern war, if you conscripted people inot the army to fight, the war would be over before they got there!

	04-12-2002 21:05									#70
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quote: Actually, I semi-agree (not with the slavery tag) that the Federal government has no authority to impose civilian national service, but state governments certainly do within most of their constitutions.

States can't violate the rights of the citizens within any more than the feds can.

	04-12-2002 21:07									#71
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[Hands over ears]

La, La, La

Don't want to hear this same arguement

[\Hands over ears]

	04-12-2002 21:16									#72
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quote: States can't violate the rights of the citizens within any more than the feds can

that's bs David and you know it...states can already force children to goto school for at least 13 years, so if states wanted to add a 13th grade that all you did was volunteer work, i'm sure it would be within their legal powers

if the federal government wanted to implement almost Mandatory Civilian Service here is how they could do it, until someone had completed a somewhere between 50-60 weeks of Civilian service, they would not be eligible for any federal student aid (including student loans), they couldn't get any federal job, they couldn't get any federal aid program like medicade, and the federal government would hold any federal tax refunds

since this will probably never happen in the US anyways, you have nothing to worry about David

	04-12-2002 21:30									#73
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Nobody can tell anyone to do anything, according to some.
I'm sorry, but it's just so laughable.
Can you see in some countries, (Someone) saying, "Yeah, well screw you and your choices".
Bullets are cheap.

	04-12-2002 21:37									#74
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I won't fight a foreign war unless someone nukes Chicago and kills my family.

	05-12-2002 03:41									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Two wrongs dont make a right.....and two idiotic-blanketing statements dont make an intelligent, reasonable statement either. ACK!

Never said they did, But having been in the military and having been a civilian. I know that, but then again I was in the military, thus, I am allowed to be an idiot, since I am anyway.

ACK!

	05-12-2002 09:24									#76
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quote: that's bs David and you know it...states can already force children to goto school for at least 13 years, so if states wanted to add a 13th grade that all you did was volunteer work, i'm sure it would be within their legal powers

First of all, that's incorrect. Once someone is 18, the state can no longer force you to go to school. Seeing as how we are not talking about drafting children, the rest of the argument is irrelevant.

quote: if the federal government wanted to implement almost Mandatory Civilian Service here is how they could do it, until someone had completed a somewhere between 50-60 weeks of Civilian service, they would not be eligible for any federal student aid (including student loans), they couldn't get any federal job, they couldn't get any federal aid program like medicade, and the federal government would hold any federal tax refunds

All of the above is OK except withholding tax refunds. That's theft, even moreso than tax itself. If the government withholds more tax than they should, they are morally obligated (and probably legally, but I don't know on that) to return the money to you.

	05-12-2002 10:15									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Never said they did, But having been in the military and having been a civilian. I know that, but then again I was in the military, thus, I am allowed to be an idiot, since I am anyway. ACK!

Our favorite tongue smiley has been invaded by the :tonguianempire:

	05-12-2002 11:42									#78
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Well, here are my thought's

First of all, there is a CLEAR, and large difference between the two. One(Military service) is a FAIR system which is applicable to (virtually) all, and the other(consription) is an completly unfair system, lottery being a good word for it, but with no prize.

I am strongly in favor of Military Service. Rah presented the best argument yet, about the equality of man. I'm not a socialist,communist,lefty or anything, but i do agree this is one area where equality is right.
There should be a flexable system in place though, whereby people can choose to do more civilian like activities if they have problems with shooting. There should NOT however be exemptions to people because of thier race or religion , i could just that stuff being in place in England, if you have a f..ing problem with it, dont live here!!!.

Military service would ensure the majority of folk are decent people, as those headcases from school/college, and the stuck up snobs from rich families would quickily be dealt with.
Many people who have done military service find it a valuable and rewarding experience, which they would swap for nothing.

Perhaps there would be the problem, of always having too many people at peacetime, but the overall productivity of the people over thier lives would be much higher because of it that the lost year or two while in service. Trust me on this one, in Industry in North England (Military service is optional over here) one of the questions when applying for some jobs is whether or not you have served, if you have , it is regarded as more important than any formal qualifications.

a final point , is that with Military service it is far more likely no-one would have to go to war if they didnt want to, as there would be lot's of volenteers from people who enjoyed thier service and have since left.

Military Service would only work if it was applicable to ALL, and was about 18 months long.

	11-12-2002 18:52									#79
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Consription would never fly in the UK....unless it was a SERIOUS war which was BRITAINS INTEREST TO RESPOND, with out being prodded and scared by our 'ally' (read:master) to pay for our 'specail relationship' (read:Slave-slavemaster realtionship)

	11-12-2002 19:24									#80
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Don't let it get your panties in a twist, Silpy.

	12-12-2002 16:40									#81
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Sorry, saw 'old W on the TV threataning Iraq again.....

	12-12-2002 16:46									#82
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Mandatory:

That kind of system does not discriminate nor favour any person. It is the democratic method of setting up a military force.

And it's fun too

	12-12-2002 16:53									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Mandatory Service is a lottery: You WILL serve, but you don't know whether there'll be a war on when you're doing it.

In Finland all those who have been in the army (that is almost everybody - conscientious objectors not included) belong to the reservist army. And all of them WILL BE CALLED ON DUTY when it is necessary. So the military service does not end here in 6, 9 or 12 months.
It ends when you are 45 years old (IIRC)

	12-12-2002 17:28									#84
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Finland?

I know of another nation which operates this system - Isreal. But who does Finland have a mortal enemies. Russia? (Remenber, you signed the castration pact with Russia) Anybody else?

	12-12-2002 17:31									#85
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Aaglo,

one day you can forget about a mandatory military service in Finland. I hope the day will come soon and we finally move over to a paid conscription army in Finland.

	12-12-2002 17:35									#86
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Silpy:

AFAIK Swizerland has a similar system also. But when was the last time they were in war?

Yep, Sovjet Union was our mortal enemy. There is no real threat in the other direction (Norway? Sweden? ) In the post-war times SU was a real threat. And Finland was a small country during that time - and still is. Hence our system is the way it is.

	12-12-2002 19:00									#87
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Ahem.

Give up this consription Finland, now.You dont need it anymore. Your in the EU now, are you not? We Brits, Germans and French will protect you now... (altough I will have to see it to beleve it, all on the same side....)

Switerland? They obvously beleave that the EU will fall apart, and will start wanting to invade each other again. (Hope it will never happen)

Because Conscription is mainly for nations who are either

1) In self-defence against a large neibour (India V Pakistan)

2) Military Goverments (Burma)

3) Nations who like war (Iraq)

4) Nations who want to feel big (China)

Sending consripts for peace-keeping is not too good, as professional troops can do it better!

Last edited by Silpy on 12-12-2002 at 19:08

	12-12-2002 19:05									#88
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Silpy -
Actually, Finland and Great Brittain are in war. The brits declared a war on finns in the end of WW2, but the Paris peace treaty didn't mention anything about that...

Ok, you will protect us. But you need us to protect you (from the Russians )

	12-12-2002 19:15									#89
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Yeah. Sorry, that was Stalin's fault.

Finland was proberly the only nation which had a good reason to ally to Nazi Germany, due to the 1939 siezure of Kalreia (bad spelling strikes again) by the Soviet Union. When Germany invaded Russia in '41, Finland saw it as a chance of getting it back, but Finland never moved troops past it's old border, which problery saved St. Petersburg. The UK was not at war with Finland until 1944, because Stalin forced us to. Finland made peace (quite generous ) in late 1944, but it seems that Finland forgot to do the same with the UK. Finland never supported Germeny's aims in europe (re 'Final Soution')
She just wanted Kalreia back.

	12-12-2002 19:24									#90
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Don't know how many times, or how many ways I can explain, but conscription/draft is not the same as mandatory service for all.

You guys are demonstrating why draftees are last resort. Comprehension problems.

I can see it now. The order is given, and you attack your own side by mistake, because the order wasn't specific enough.