04-12-2002 00:56									#1
	ever had to watch a GL die? Inflate your Upload Space

saddest sight I ever did see...

in my current game (monarch level, standard map, continents) it boiled down to 4 civs left. I had a continent and smaller sister continent all to myself. The French had their own, and Arabia was the dominate civ on its own with a vassalized Zulu nation just taking up space.

I consider myself a warmonger but found myself in that in-between period when defense (infantry namely) is dominant over cavalry prior to better offensive units in the mid-industrial age. Well, Arabia surprised me with a war out of the blue, and I felt a massive offensive invasion of their continent at that point just wasn't feasible. However, I did decide to offload several small excess forces (4 in each) of veteran infantry at different locations in their nearby homeland to preoccupy their offensive forces and, hopefully, start softening up their mainland for the inevitable massive invasion to come.

Anyway, they had a large army to say the least. I offloaded my infantry into some forested tundra without any real intention of getting very far but planning to take more of them out with me. Next turn, I watched as they threw guerillas, cavalry, infantry at me seemingly without end, and to my surprise, I generated a Great Leader from that. But I had to sit there and watch them eventually wear down my small force with shear numbers and eventually take out my defenseless leader before I ever had the chance to ferry him away to my homeland. Sad...

Anyone else every had this happen to them?

	04-12-2002 01:54									#2
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Yes, a couple times. When a GL is generated on another continent or on an unroaded tile, he can have a short life. Depending on the circumstances ( Great Wonder race?) it might be worth a peace treaty to save him. ...especially if you don't care about your rep and just declare war again after a couple turns

	04-12-2002 02:47									#3
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A GL generated while defending usually dies young in my experience.

	04-12-2002 03:17									#4
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Yeah, I've lost a couple.

Luckily I've killed far more than ive lost

	04-12-2002 03:33									#5
	Re: ever had to watch a GL die? Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser Anyone else every had this happen to them?

I lost the very first one I ever had, in just a couple of turns. I didn't really know what I had, and I figured they'd be a lot tougher than they are.

	04-12-2002 03:36									#6
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You can see when the AI get's a GL too btw,
the screen pauzes/glitches for just a fraction of a second.
That's when you know, you have to kill all the units on that tile

	04-12-2002 03:45									#7
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Yep, it's a terrible thing... Poor Khufu never had a chance, being created by a war chariot that was then counterattacked by 2 archers. *sob*

I have actally never killed, or even seen an AI GL, although I have seen armies. I guess most of their elites are used elsewhere, as I never see AI elites very often either. Of course, that's what you get with early war...

	04-12-2002 03:53									#8
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No, but KittenOfChaos did on the turn it was created in one of my MP games

	04-12-2002 04:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe A GL generated while defending usually dies young in my experience.

Sadly true, for me too

I had a very bad game, one when you can't access any iron and miss any real chance to defend yourself from bloody civs near your...

I've lost three GL in a turn of eroic but useless defense. I can't have the control to save them in any way. I saved the game just for recording, then I quitted it in angry frustation.

Then I went to beat my children with a cub (just kidding none was harm if not my ego).

	04-12-2002 04:44									#10
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I too have had a few great leaders die before their time, usually due to my stupidity however. (sure go ahead unesorted in enemy territory Patton, the Egyptians wouldn't dare to....) It's the saddest feeling you can have from a Civ 3 experience (unless you count the end screen in which it says Abe Lincoln will return!)

	04-12-2002 04:54									#11
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This is quite common on leaders that are created on defense. The AI keeps coming and often over runs you and good bye leader.

	04-12-2002 06:52									#12
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I've only lost one leader, and a painful loss it was...

However later in that war the AI got a GL right next to one of my cities, and you know what I did

	04-12-2002 09:56									#13
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Yeah, cheer yourself up with the alternative... hack down a SoD, and take a quick screeshot of the dying AI GL!

	04-12-2002 13:08									#14
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I lost GLs in only one game, but it was enough to last me a life time.
This scenario happend several times during the same war (I was playing the Germans and fighting the Japanese):
I couldn't wait to get transporters, so I loaded 4 or 5 galleons with Cavalry and sent them to an island the Japanese occupied (it was next to their main continent). I would land 4 Cavalries, take one Japanese city, then fortify to wait for reinforcements. The Japanese would counter-attack with hordes of Samurais and every single time, my last surviving Cavalry, down to its last health point, would generate a GL. Of course, the Japanese had one more Samurai and reinforcements were only 1 or 2 turns away. I still can't believe this happened!
Also, this was the only time I got more than 3 GLs during an entire game.

	04-12-2002 19:53									#15
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Ouch!

I'v lost only one but taken 3-5. One of them with a cultural flip. I was very close to dislocating my jaw by laughing

I managed to save a GL yesterday against nasty odds. I sent a lone horseman into russian territory to hunt for germans. Two kills later I had a GL and a badly wounded horseman which were killed the next turn. My poor GL had to play hide and seek around moscow while the germans were running in every direction. Finally I had him meet with a strong escort so I could get him home. The strangest part is that the germans never did any serious attempt to take him.

	04-12-2002 22:38									#16
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Heh, I' have a good story for you. In my current DYP game I've been watching the Zulus and the Scandanavians duke it out on my eastern border. (I had made peace with the Zulus several turns before.)

One turn I notice a strange looking Scandanavian unit on the border. It turns out to be a newly created GL. At this point I have a nefarious idea. I send some horsemen and a few other units into the Scandanavian territory and herd the GL and his escort (a lone longbowman) into my territory. (I had to negotiate a ROP at one point to keep from having to withdraw/declare war) The GL is now "vacationing" on the banks of one of my inland lakes surrounded by a "bodyguard" of horsemen and warriors. I just got access to iron and, once I get the horsies upgraded to knights, I'll start a grand Scandanavian war with a quick assassination.....

	04-12-2002 23:18									#17
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I've had the pleasure of butchering many a GL, but I lost one as well. Fortunately I didn't really need him though.

	05-12-2002 00:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Gyromancer I just got access to iron and, once I get the horsies upgraded to knights, I'll start a grand Scandanavian war with a quick assassination.....

Um, why?

Better to keep his GL bottled up forever with a few spare units of your own (warriors, workers, whatever). That way you not only deny him the use of the GL, but also he can never generate a new one!

This is especially malicious if you're not planning on wiping him out any time soon. I once had a game where Persia (the main AI badass and warmonger) and I were competing over Wonders at every stage and also both fighting wars of conquest amongst the lesser powers. I was able to generate GLs to snag some close Wonders, but, since I had his existing GL bottled up in my territory, he never could (even though he was busily conquering the other continent).

Solodar

	05-12-2002 02:48									#19
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Solodar's right... keep the leader locked up indefinately. He's worth much more to you alive than dead.

	05-12-2002 13:36									#20
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solodar , hey man. You're evil

My guess is that the odds that the AI will disband a GL is excactly nil.

	05-12-2002 15:26									#21
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I never lost a GL, I always had luck and could escort them safely to one of my cities. But I never saw a GL generated by the AI. As cyclotron7 said, the AI probably uses most of their elites somewhere else... maybe in a defense role?

	05-12-2002 16:30									#22
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I have lost a GL only once. The GL was emerged due a defensive war. Those archers just kept coming and coming and coming.... killing all my 4 cavalry units.

	05-12-2002 19:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by bongo solodar , hey man. You're evil

What can I say ... the AI brings it out in me.

quote: My guess is that the odds that the AI will disband a GL is excactly nil.

Yeah, the AI never seems to figure out what's going on ... which a human player definitely would. I guess that makes this an exploit, but it sure is a satisfying one.

solodar

	06-12-2002 14:51									#24
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If you make a poll about what is the funniest exploit I'll vote for this one

I don't know if I will be able to resist the urge to capture an AI leader next time I see one instead of killing him.

	06-12-2002 18:39									#25
	Remove this text

Hm, If you surround that unit with good defensive units, you can even start a war with them and still keep it alive. Simply wait for them to attack. By the way if they use a unit to escort, they usually don't attack with it. In fact I have never seen an escorting unit attack....

	16-12-2002 05:33									#26
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Oh, don't remind me. My first ever great leader was spawned defending Sparta from the evil Aztec invaders. I'm rushing in a sword to escort the guy out. But an Aztec SoD had other ideas. Result: lost my first ever GL and the city of Sparta. I almost kicked in the monitor in anger.

	16-12-2002 05:58									#27
	Re: ever had to watch a GL die? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser saddest sight I ever did see... in my current game (monarch level, standard map, continents) it boiled down to 4 civs left. I had a continent and smaller sister continent all to myself. The French had their own, and Arabia was the dominate civ on its own with a vassalized Zulu nation just taking up space. I consider myself a warmonger but found myself in that in-between period when defense (infantry namely) is dominant over cavalry prior to better offensive units in the mid-industrial age. Well, Arabia surprised me with a war out of the blue, and I felt a massive offensive invasion of their continent at that point just wasn't feasible. However, I did decide to offload several small excess forces (4 in each) of veteran infantry at different locations in their nearby homeland to preoccupy their offensive forces and, hopefully, start softening up their mainland for the inevitable massive invasion to come. Anyway, they had a large army to say the least. I offloaded my infantry into some forested tundra without any real intention of getting very far but planning to take more of them out with me. Next turn, I watched as they threw guerillas, cavalry, infantry at me seemingly without end, and to my surprise, I generated a Great Leader from that. But I had to sit there and watch them eventually wear down my small force with shear numbers and eventually take out my defenseless leader before I ever had the chance to ferry him away to my homeland. Sad... Anyone else every had this happen to them?

yep. unfortunately.

	17-12-2002 23:56									#28
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I have lost GLs that were generated with suicide attacks on my opponents landmass. One of my previos games I was Germany, and my Arch-rival Persia was across the ocean. We had a stalemate going on(In my shortsightedness I had not built a navy.) So as my hastily assembled battleships were duking it out with his, I sent a transport stacked with panzers to an isthmus on his continent. My intention was to knock off a few cities and some infrastructure. it was extremely successful, razing his oil city, tearing up rails, and generating a GL. I could not evacuate as my transport and escort had been destroyed, and so built an army and became a huge nuisiance before I was finally killed off.

	18-12-2002 14:11									#29
	Re: Re: ever had to watch a GL die? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Willem I lost the very first one I ever had, in just a couple of turns. I didn't really know what I had, and I figured they'd be a lot tougher than they are.

My very first GL also died; I was playing Russia in one of my first Civ 3 games. I had decided to attack India; must have been one too many times of being offered veggie curry or something. I got a GL defending, and India wiped out the several units in the stack, including him. He didn't even last a few minutes.