04-12-2002 05:36									#1
	Listing proven cheaters: Yes or no? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is not a thread to debate further the issue of a cheater's list (I'm refraining from jokingly using the word 'blacklist' since it somehow causes problems); we've all already made our cases. I'm just curious what the general consensus is here. So far it seems the ANZAC, conmcb25, and I are the only ones holding the fort, but maybe I'm wrong.

Last edited by Darius871 on 04-12-2002 at 05:42

	04-12-2002 06:53									#2
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I voted it's a good thing, I just think it doesn't go far enough.

	04-12-2002 08:33									#3
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your #1 supporter is here. Yes I agree There are too many threads on ths subject, it gets confusing

	04-12-2002 09:22									#4
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Seeing as most proven cheats vanish, I'm not sure what good it does. On the other hand, as I can't see how it can do any harm, so I'm all for it

	04-12-2002 09:34									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Case Seeing as most proven cheats vanish, I'm not sure what good it does.

Two things:

1) There are examples of caught cheaters joining games with their original name, without mentioning their past at all (one of them should ring a bell Case ). Don't laugh, this has happened. A list would certainly prevent this from happening.

2) A list can even serve a purpose in identifying DL's of past cheaters. Whether it be grammar, location, playing style, signature contents, or whatever else, DL cheaters could be identified more easily if people know who their old alias was. It could also serve as a method with which players and moderators can compare the date where a cheater disappeared with the date that the suspected DL registered.

	04-12-2002 10:49									#6
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Heres an idea, why doesn't the SLeague just put up a page with a list of PBEM cheaters instead of cluttering up the forum with this crap?

	04-12-2002 11:19									#7
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"A list can even serve a purpose in identifying DL's of past cheaters. Whether it be grammar, location, playing style, signature contents, or whatever else, DL cheaters could be identified more easily if people know who their old alias was. It could also serve as a method with which players and moderators can compare the date where a cheater disappeared with the date that the suspected DL registered."

Sorry Darius but THIS has witch-hunt written all over it. Listing known cheaters is one thing, supporting accusations based on writing or playing style is silliness.

	04-12-2002 11:39									#8
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quote: Sorry Darius but THIS has witch-hunt written all over it. Listing known cheaters is one thing, supporting accusations based on writing or playing style is silliness.

Who said anything about supporting accusations, I'm talking about people with legitimate concerns talking privately to moderators about possible DL's. That's the way it's been dealt with before and it wasn't called a 'witch hunt' then. I never said anything about posting public threads saying "Oh my god this guy's writing sounds a lot like cheater x, so it must be him! Wraagh!!! "; only something that ridiculous would fit your description.

	04-12-2002 12:13									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Choke Sorry Darius but THIS has witch-hunt written all over it. Listing known cheaters is one thing, supporting accusations based on writing or playing style is silliness.

Yes, I agree with that: the list itself might be a good thing, but only as long as it doesn't lead to a witch-hunt...

	04-12-2002 12:34									#10
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So it's ok to get them banned based on your opinion but not ok to make it public stick to facts like proven cheating.

	04-12-2002 12:42									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Choke So it's ok to get them banned based on your opinion but not ok to make it public stick to facts like proven cheating.

What the hell are you talking about? DL's are always banned, it's a forum policy. They are easily confirmed by an IP match, so there's nothing to say about 'opinion' or 'accusations'. The point is that a player's familiarity with an old cheater could make him raise an eyebrow at a suspected DL, and privately contact a moderator to do check and see if the person is indeed a DL. If he is, he will be banned as is site policy. If he isn't, then nothing was said on the boards and no harm is done.

quote: Yes, I agree with that: the list itself might be a good thing, but only as long as it doesn't lead to a witch-hunt...

Look guys, a witch hunt hasn't happened, and anyone that starts one will have 90% of the community against them, including me. You're all too worried about this.

	04-12-2002 14:08									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 Look guys, a witch hunt hasn't happened, and anyone that starts one will have 90% of the community against them, including me. You're all too worried about this.

Hey, relax Darius, I wasn't implying it was what you had in mind!

I'm just a bit concerned about what a few "hotheads" might want to do with it, that's all: we have already seen a few too hasty reactions in the past (the last one in Mongols pbem) and I would prefer this kind of things not to happen again!

And yes, you're right, the majority of the community would be against it, but once someone has been accused of something (like being a DL for a cheater), well, it just leaves a stain even if he is innocent...

Still, no hard feelings, my friend!

	04-12-2002 14:35									#13
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Ok, well IP bans don't work too well anyway, they're easy enough to get around. But if all it is is the mod checking IPs and letting that be the determining factor that's fine.

	04-12-2002 19:43									#14
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It's tackey, and it will lead to trouble.

It isn't done in MP, and cheaters in that have been exposed many times.

This kind of thing makes me glad I only play people I know and trust, I never play with people at random anymore.

I think I have some credibilty commenting here, I have been playing PBEMs for over a year and a half now, and I don't see the need for a public humiliation thread, but you guys do what you like.

	04-12-2002 21:51									#15
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Why does everyone consider its purpose to be 'public humilitation'? Punishment and deterrence were not my/our original intentions, more like a welcome bonus.

Last edited by Darius871 on 04-12-2002 at 22:02

	04-12-2002 23:27									#16
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It's neither a bonus nor welcome.

It's more, how can I put this politly.....low class to display this kind of thread.

Cheaters become known quickly, there is no need for this, it's like gawking at an auto accident.

You know, I talked to the powers that be about this crap, and though my viewpoint was identical, but only the offical moderator of this section can end this, that being Leo I guess.

Step up to the plate Leo, start earning that mod tag, this stuff is crap, get rid of it.

Apolyton is supposed to be above this pettiness.

	05-12-2002 00:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 It's neither a bonus nor welcome. It's more, how can I put this politly.....low class to display this kind of thread. Cheaters become known quickly, there is no need for this, it's like gawking at an auto accident. You know, I talked to the powers that be about this crap, and though my viewpoint was identical, but only the offical moderator of this section can end this, that being Leo I guess. Step up to the plate Leo, start earning that mod tag, this stuff is crap, get rid of it. Apolyton is supposed to be above this pettiness.

Chris Lighten up OK, the poll has 8 in favor and three opposed. Can we let democracy work here? The low class/ crap thing is your opinion NOT fact. If you dont like the thread then dont read it, and since you only play with people you know, I guess you dont need it anyway.

BTW Darius its a tie between me and the ANZAC on who is your biggest supporter.

And my hats off to St Leo for letting this healthy discussion and thread take place unlike some other websites I participate in. (And yes Chris that is my opinion!)

	05-12-2002 00:32									#18
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For the moment, I'd prefer it if both sides would shut up. It's not as if anyone reads stickied threads, so it's hardly "public" humiliation. I, for one, tend to develop a blind spot towards them very fast.

I am abstaining from putting my fist down on this. In RL, I am against things like a Sex Offender registry, but I am not sure if the reasons I am against that transfer to this list. Yawn.

Hakuna matata.

	05-12-2002 02:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Chris Lighten up OK, the poll has 8 in favor and three opposed.

Dude, YOU need to lighten up, seriously.

quote: Can we let democracy work here?

Forums aern't democracies, and when something is wrong, it's wrong, it matters not if the majority favors it.

quote: The low class/ crap thing is your opinion NOT fact.

It's fact, ask any of the more mature players.

quote: If you dont like the thread then dont read it, and since you only play with people you know, I guess you dont need it anyway.

Your quite the little fascist, aern't you?
You think you can ram this crap down everybodies throat?

quote: And my hats off to St Leo for letting this healthy discussion and thread take place unlike some other websites I participate in. (And yes Chris that is my opinion!)

There is NOTHING "healthy" about this, Leo hasn't yet taken a stand.
BTW, I have nothing to do with CFC's PBEMs, but I do support Smash in not allowing this sort of thing.
You will notice the MP world never bothered with such lists, why are YOU so determined to have it?
Ask yourself why you feel as you do.

quote: I am abstaining from putting my fist down on this.

Leo, this is your FIRST big test, up to you whether you will allow this crap or not.
Puking out isn't a good plan.
If your against it, do something, if you support it, say so.
You can't fence sit as moderator.

	05-12-2002 02:51									#20
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Wow! I guess I have been put in my place!

Chris I appreciate your opinions but I dont agree with them. Simple as that so let agree at least to disagree. And Im not ramming anything down anyones throat. If you dont like it you dont have to read it simple as that, but there are folks out there who want this and will use this and with the poll I can with some assurance state that as a fact.

Not sure where the lighten up statement comes from, I dont think I did anything to attack you or your opinion, and Ill say that again, opinion here.

If you and the more mature players believe it is a fact thats fine but in my world it is your opinion. That goes for the other mature players you refer to as well. BTW check my birthday.

Im done and Im not responding to you on this issue anymore because I can tell it is a sore spot with you, and ST Leo would probally appreciate that from me as well.

If I offended you in any way I apologize, because that was not the intent, but Im not just going to sit here and be attacked for my opinions.

	05-12-2002 03:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Leo, this is your FIRST big test, up to you whether you will allow this crap or not. Puking out isn't a good plan. If your against it, do something, if you support it, say so. You can't fence sit as moderator.

No offence Chris, but this isn't the CFC OT Forum. Just about everbody who posts or reads this board is sencible, sane and over 18.

No-one is going to be falsely added to 'the list' for the simple reason that anybody who falsely accuses someone of cheating and refuses to drop the claim is going to end up as a pariah themselves.


Pehaps a comprimise position would be for the thread to be locked and only Mods be able to add to 'the list'. This would ensure that the thread doesn't decend into malicious claims or a spam-fest.

	05-12-2002 03:18									#22
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quote: BTW Darius its a tie between me and the ANZAC on who is your biggest supporter.

Don't turn me into some sort of ringleader here Steve; I'm not too thrilled about this either. People brought up the idea of listing cheaters, I and a few people thought it was a good idea, and I made the thread because no one else had the balls to. I'm not passionate about it at all and frankly I don't care if it gets deleted because people make WAY too big a deal out of it, on BOTH sides.

	05-12-2002 03:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Case This would ensure that the thread doesn't decend into malicious claims or a spam-fest.

That is already being prevented in effect by St. Leo's moving all unrelated garbage to the 'regarding' thread, which I think is a good solution. EVERYONE on the thread has been proven beyond a doubt and any stupid accusations that people are worried about will me moved if not deleted. If this is a test, he's passed it.

	05-12-2002 03:42									#24
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Go ahead, I don't mind if you do or if you don't because hell, I'll play with a cheater because I know he'll be watched like a hawk.

	05-12-2002 03:44									#25
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Watched like a hawk if people know that he has cheated.

	05-12-2002 06:33									#26
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Okay, there is that argument.

On the other hand, it is proven that these lists do nothing but anger people.

I take no sides.

	05-12-2002 06:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by 0hwell On the other hand, it is proven that these lists do nothing but anger people.

We're certainly in agreement there.

	05-12-2002 07:04									#28
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I dunno what you mean by "Free Willy" but I voted that, whatever it means. Wasn't that the cheesy movie about that whale?

	05-12-2002 07:15									#29
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This needs to be put bluntly:

Chris, you're in the minority and no one cares what you think, shut up.

	05-12-2002 07:18									#30
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That's what I love about you choke!