04-12-2002 06:38									#1
	Dip 50: Spring 1875 Results Get a bigger avatar today!

Need retreats from CSA and Turkey ASAP. Fall orders due Sunday at Midnight

Austria (by CyberGnu standing in provisionally)
A Wrs -> Sev (move fails)
A Mos S A Wrs -> Sev (support cut, unit dislodged, can retreat to Liv or OTB)
A Glc -> Rmn
A Ven -> Crt (move fails)
A Sil -> Glc
A Kie S A Hol
A Mun (or whatever that pieace is called) S A Ct
A Pie S A Mrs
A Hol S A Ct
A Mrs S F Wmed -> Vlc (support cut)
F Lyon S F Wmed -> Vlc
F Wmed -> Vlc (move fails, unit dislodged and destroyed)
F Crs -> W. Med (move fails)
F Adr -> Ion
F Tyr S F Adr -> Ion
F Sic S F Adr -> Ion
A Rom Hold
F Nap -> Adr

Dutch
F Amn H
F Mld H
F E.Indian-Cey

Turkey (Orange)
F HoAfrica - Ken (move fails)
F Som S F HoAfrica - Ken
F Ade - Red
F Sey - M. Channel (move fails, unit dislodged and destroyed)
F Bag - Persian
A Afg - Khv (move fails)
A Teh S A Afg - Khv
A Ban - Afg (move fails)
F Tun S F Ionian
F Ionian S A Trp (support cut, unit dislodged, can retreat to Gr, Aeg, Cre, Tbq or E.Med)
A Trp S A Cai - Fzz (support cut)
A Asw S A Cai - Fzz
A Dar S A Cai - Fzz
A Cai - Fzz
F Hdr S F Bag - Persian
A Bku Grg (move fails)
A Sev S A Bku - Grg (support cut)
F Black S A Bku - Grg
A Arm - Bku (move fails)
A Sr - Crt (move fails)
F Gr - Bos (wc)

England (The Orange One)
A-Grg >Mos
F-Baltic > Prs
F-Nor S F-Skg
F-Hlg S F-Den
F-Skg S F-Nor
A-Fin S F-Nor
A-Stp S A-Grg > Mos
A-Oma H
F-Arabian H
F-G.Manaar > B.Bengal
A-Krc S A-Kas (support cut)
A-Kas S A-Krc
A-Mds H
A-Ben > Rng (move fails)
F-Mls > Bnk/wc (move fails)
A-Sp H
F-Oki S Chinese F-Philippine (support cut, unit dislodged and destroyed)
F-Sum > Java (move fails)



China (Defiant)
PRM S OMS - GRG
OMS - GRG
ORN S OMS -GRG
KRA - OMS
IRK - KRA
BKH - KRC (move fails)
KSH S BKH - KRC
TIB - KAS (move fails)
BRM S YUT - RNG
YUT - RNG
SIA -BNK (move fails)
CCH - CMB
F-HK S F-S.CHINA
F-FM S F-PHILIPPINE
F-S.CHINA S F-PHILIPPINE
F-PHILIPPINE S F-YELLOW - OKI (support cut)
F-YELLOW - OKI
F-E.CHINA S F-YELLOW - OKI
F-CRL S F- PHILIPPINE
F-BISMARK GIVES THE OLE #1 FINGER TO THE FLEETS IN IJA, NGU, CORAL, EQCOUNTERCURRENT, MHL,

W.PACIFIC, MND AND LUZ. THIS IS HOW MANY IT TAKES TO BRING DOWN ONE DEFIANT CLASS WARSHIP,

COWARDS. (unit dislodged and destroyed)
F-KURIL S F-IZU (support cut)
F-IZU S F- KURIL
F-EDO S F-IZU
F-KAM S F-KURIL
A-VLA - IRK

To English, Sorry, but we need to make a break through, but thank you for you valid support in

the past.


Dip 50 Imperial - Spring 1875 Confederate States of America Orders

F Richmond - Eastern Seaboard
F Greenland - Barents Sea (move fails)
F Northern Passage supports F Greenland - Barents Sea
F Barents Sea - Norway (move fails)
A Iceland - hold
F Norwegian Sea supports F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea
F Edinburg supports F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea
F London supports F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea
F North Atlantic Ocean - North Sea (move fails)
F Dublin - North Atlantic Ocean (move fails)
F North Sea - Rouen (move fails)
F Nantes F North Sea - Rouen
A Rouen - Metz (move fails)
A Paris supports A Bordeaux - Marseilles
A Bordeaux - Marseilles (move fails)
A Toledo supports F Valencia - hold
F Gibraltar supports F Valencia - hold
F Valencia supports F Algeria - Western Mediterranean Sea
F Strait of Gibraltar supports F Algeria - Western Mediterranean Sea
F Morocco supports F Algeria - Western Mediterranean Sea
F Algeria - Western Mediterranean Sea
A FZZ - DAR (move fails, unit dislodged, can retreat to Tbq or OTB)
A TWR - Triploi (move fails)
A ELJ -TWR (move fails)
A TIR - TGN
F Canary Islands convoys A Cape Verde Islands - TIR
A Cape Verde Islands - TIR
A Azores Islands - hold
F Monrovia - Sierra Leone
F DMK - Gulf of Guinea
F San Francisco - West Coast
A Washington State - hold
A Alaska - hold
F Anchorage supports F Bering Sea - hold
F Bering Sea supports F Westerlies - Kuril Trench
F Westerlies - Kuril Trench (move fails)
F Western Pacific Ocean supports F Westerlies - Kuril Trench
F Equatorial Countercurrent supports Mexican F Coral Sea - Bismark Sea
F IJA supports Mexican F Coral Sea - Bismark Sea
F Mindanao supports F Luzon - Luzon Strait
F Luzon - Luzon Strait (move fails)
F Luzon Strait - Phillipine Sea (move fails)
F Sunda Sea - Gulf of Siam
F Borneo - Celebes Sea

Press:
RICHMOND, VIRGINIA - April 1, 1875 - President Ruffhaus of the Confederacy
praised the continued excellent work of the Mexican navy, and congratulated
them in expanding their already proud empire. He also has had nothing good
to say about Chinese navy after watching the daft fools build yet another
fleet (F Hong Kong) in spite being faced with certain destruction at the
hands of the superior skils of Admiral Faragut.

In other news, a Moscow based correspondent reported news of an international
sex scandal. I t seems that the Britsh PM in exile was seen in a
(typically) filthy Turkish bath house in comprimising positions with an
Austrian diplomat and a little Dutch boy. Apparently the trio later
attempted to book a hotel room by the hour, and a informed by the locals that
there weren't proper whores.

+++

Surrender D-E-F-I-A-N-T!

PRESS:

Mexican soldiers have been practicing a "Rebel Yell" in honor of our Northern
allies.

Who is ordering these Turkish troops? Nancy Pelosi?

The Engish obviously have been taught how to bob and kneel. It seems to be
helping them with their landlord, the Chinaman.

The Dutch always choke on the big one.

Confucious say, "Sun Tsu would be mortified by recent tactical blunders. Sun
Tsu hide head in shame from awe of the Western world superiority."

MOVES:

1. F MHL s F Coral - Bismark
2. F SW Pacific - Coral
3. F Barrier s F SE Trades
4. F A. Pacific s F Barrier
5. F Coral - Bismark
6. F Good Hope s F W. Indian
7. F B. Current - A. Atlantic
8. A URU - GOY
9. A DML s A RHO - AGL
10. A PRA holds
11. A RHO - AGL
12. F NE Trades s F M. Atlantic
13. F M. Atlantic s F S. Atlantic
14. F S. Atlantic s F B. Current - A. Atlantic
15. F M. Channel s F NE Monsoon - SEY
16. F TRN - MOZ
17. A BOT holds
18. A MOZ - RHO
19. A CNG s A KEN
20. A KEN s CSA A FZZ - DAR (support cut)
21. F MAD s F M. Channel
22. F A. Indian s F. SE Trades
23. F SRW - SUNDA
24. F ANDAMAN - MLS (move fails)
25. F Timor - JAVA
26. F JVA s F Timor - JAVA
27. F SE Trades s F JAVA - SUM
28. F JAVA - SUM
29. F NGU s F Coral - Bismark
30. F QUE s F SW Pacific - Coral
31. F PRT s F SE Trades
32. F W. Indian s F NE Monsoon - SEY
33. F NE Monsoon - SEY
34. A NTR holds
35. F FLK - Drake
36. F OLI - CoArgentina
37. F SCT - SW Pacific

	05-12-2002 06:33									#2
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Here's the map for Spring 1875:


http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/IMPERIAL/S1875.gif


Please check for accuracy.


As ususal, I'll provide my observations in the course of making the map:

Austrian A Bavaria (unordered)
Austrian A CT (does not exist, see A Metz)
Austrian A Metz (unordered)
Austrian F Naples (does not exist, assuming that GM allowed Salerno to move there?)
Austrian F Salerno (unordered)
Austrian A Stutgart (unordered)
Austrian A Munich (does not exist, see A Bavaria or A stutgart)

Chinese A Bokhara - Karachi should succeed
Chinese A KSL (unordered)

English F Denmark (unordered)
English A Karachi should be dislodged with retreat options of Gujarat, Rajputana, or OTB
English A Kashmir's support of Karachi is cut by Chinese A Tibet
English F Sumatra should be dislodged, with retreat options of East Indina Ocean or OTB

Turkish A Afghanistan - KHV should succeed
Turkish A Bandar E-Abbas - Afghanistan should succeed

	07-12-2002 08:53									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

retreat to Gr. And I'd like to take this opportunity to say...

Boshko - these are the absolute shittiest GM policies I've ever seen in my 2 year diplomacy career, and I'd strongly advise you to never use them in any game ever again.

If you or anyone else was to state these 'rules' in the beginning of a game, I'd not join it.

	07-12-2002 14:25									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

(As a side note: I was in a hurry and couldn't see the area names on the map. I tried as best I could and asked Boshko to correct if needed. Consequently, the area I thought was Munich should be Stu. Likewise, I thought it said CT when it actually says Met. The ones left unordered were meant to be ordered to hold. Don't think it matters much, just wanted to say I'm not a complete incompetent )

	07-12-2002 20:34									#5
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Gnu, I'm just pointing these things out as I do the map. In most cases your rushed orders didn't effect the game. The only one that really does in "F NAP - ADR". There is no Naples on the map, but my interpretation of Boshko's GMing ruling was that he was allowing "NAP" (Naples) as a designation for Salerno. This isn't how I would necessarily do it, but the intent was clear, and it's consistent with how Boshko has been adjudicating the game.

I'm not sure the MUN (Munich) and Stutgart are geographically compatable, but that's just the German in me coming out. As for Metz, well the abbreviation CT could be interpreted as C**T, and that might well be very appropriate!

Boshko, I am just waiting on England's retreats to update the map (Turkey's is posted, and mine is with you). Since the Fall deadline is fast approaching, it would be nice to know....

Last edited by RUFFHAUS 8 on 07-12-2002 at 22:12

	07-12-2002 21:32									#6
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Salerno - Ionian doesn't work anyway, does it?

	07-12-2002 22:15									#7
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Meant to say Adriatic, not Ionian...

	08-12-2002 21:43									#8
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ok, england's NMRed with retreats.
following the retreat towards the capitol rule, that gives us a retreat to Raj and E.Indian
get in them orders...

	09-12-2002 16:32									#9
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I haven't NMRed, I quit last turn remember

	09-12-2002 17:40									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Map updated with retreats.

	10-12-2002 09:03									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I am having a work/life meltdown here. I need a 48 hour extension. I also will be on family vacation; if I don't combust, from the 12th through the 22nd of December.

	03-01-2003 02:26									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What is the status of this game? Forgive me for sounding self-centered here, but I've got 44 supply centers currently with several more realistically in store. I want more than a seven player draw out of this game. If the remaining six players think that they belong in the draw, then let them turn in their moves and prove that they deserve their place.

Boshko has volunteered his time to finish the game off as GM, but has grown disenchanted because players refuse to turn in orders. And unfortunately he doesn't have the iron fist to enforce NMR's and abandonments so that the game can move on. If there's no one interested in continuing the game now than let's have them opt out.

I do wish to continue the game, however I can see where the game is no longer fun for Holland, Austria, Britain, Turkey, and China. The long absence of diplomacy in this game has already decided that the end result isn't presently favorable to any of these nations. That doesn't entitle these players to force a draw by abandoning the game.

Therefore I propose that we call the game a draw between CSA and Mexico, who jointly hold 81 supply centers and counting, and move on with things. China could make a claim to a place in the draw, but Emperor Defiant has no allies, and their is no grand alliance formed to stop the CSA-Mexico juggernaut from this eventual result. He also hasn't proved that his position is defensable yet, and loses ground each turn.

Now if those of you remaining want to play on, let's get it on! We'll get players to play out the mercy positions of holland, Austria, and Britain, and continue. Cyber Gnu was tentatively playing Austria, and might (?) take it on full time. Otherwise we place these nations in civil disorder and continue with what players we have.

I'm sorry if my proposal offends anyone. It's not meant to, but the reality is that there is no defensive stalemate line or even anything remotely resembling an alliance to stop CSA/Mexico, who are advancing on Europe and Asia from all sides. Defiant has played a fair game with China, and has a nice SC count. But as I mentioned before has no allies and two powerful enemies. He also has annoyed all of the other remaining powers, and none are likely to help him now. Orange, and Orange_1 did an admirable job with Britain and Turkey respectively after taking on large powers (as replacements) that were reeling from previous poor play. CyberGnu was at least playing out Austria, turrning in orders for a nation caught in the meat grinder and little hope for survival.

Maybe Berzerker will step up and take England or even Holland, and if Gnu continues, then there's some point in playing this out.

Thoughts?

	03-01-2003 02:34									#13
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i'll continue playing, but I think it's pointless. As I took over as a replacement, and have no realistic shot at sharing in the draw, and as I will not under any circumstances work with China or Mexico because of their poor diplomatic decisions towards me in this game, I will agree to a draw as requested by Ruffhaus. However, as Defiant won't likely agree to this, I'll continue to turn in moves and accept diplomatic suggestions from all nations.

That said, I'd like to see this game come to an end. It's being dragged out for no reason, and the Civil Disorder style is only helping that.

	07-01-2003 16:45									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

I have to admit that this game is dying. Thank you, Boshko for taking over as GM. Good game, Defiant, Orange, Orange_1 and anyone I'm forgetting. Congratultions to the mighty CSA who saw the CSA/Mexico alliance as a peferct Northern Hemisphere/Southern Hemisphere outward-expansion alliance. It was fun working with you, Randy, for a change. That all being said, I vote YES for the CSA/Mexico draw. No offense, Turkey, but YOU never e-mailed me once to conduct diplomacy as I approached your borders. So I proceeded to grab your centers. Its been fun for more than a year?!?!? Wow, what a long ass game.

	07-01-2003 19:01									#15
	Suffering from ads?

sure I have

	10-01-2003 17:42									#16
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Okay, with Gerwald and orange responding favoravly to the proposed CSA/Mexico draw, can we hear from Defiant and Boshko on this? That ought to just about settle things, unless Cyber Gnu has become a full time player, in which case we could play on, right?

	11-01-2003 01:26									#17
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Look, do what you will, I barely visit this site anymore, I don't share Ruffhaus's thought of China not being defensible, it is and the ground I gave up is neglible in contrast to what I hold and what is needed for a stalemate. Since England quit I have to allies, which is correct and trying to deal with that moron in Turkey diplomatically would only raise my frustration level to new heights so it is not worth it, I don't give a rat's a** what you do. My fall moves have been in for a very long time.

	11-01-2003 03:20									#18
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that "moron" offered you a plan that would have put you in position to at least share in a draw 3 years ago. But you blew it, pal, by insisting on your might makes right approach to the game Ruff is correct, your position is indefensible. You'll die a slow death, but you'll eventually die. So will I, which is why I'm ok with the draw (not to mention that I don't have a whole lot of my blood sweat and tears in this game, as I came in as a replacement)

	11-01-2003 04:57									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Defiant, I'm not trying to cheat you out of anything. In fact I prefer to continue the game. I was simply asking if you and orange were willing to concede the obvious eventual finish. He is/was, and now apparently you are not. Fine.

Let's get it on then. I'm just saying that I have at minimum a two way draw here, and I there is nothing that you can do to stop it. I will accept nothing less. However I am not attempting to force you into concession prematurely. I think that it's over for you, and while it will take many turns, I will take full evil enjoyment in slowly and meticulously out-guessing you in the Pacific again and again, picking off strategical sea territories and supply centers one by one, while your lines in Asia erode and allows the hordes in.

Boshko, since Defiant wants to play on, which is his right, will you please place England in civil disorder, and have us continue?

	17-01-2003 17:26									#20
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Boshko?

Can we get some guidance here? Do we have a CSA/Mexico draw, or are we playing on?

	19-01-2003 00:45									#21
	Put an end to popups!

Well, what's is gonna be Defiant? Boshko? I want to know if this game is continuing or not before moving on and taking decisions to join (or not) new games.

My assertion is that there is no hope for China to survive given the current circumstances and alliance structures. Three of the four remaining players agree. Using the stall tactic to declare a draw is disgraceful. Can we get a definitive answer here?

I think you have every right to make me back up my claim, Defiant, and I'm willing to do it. Just tell me whether we are continuing or not. It's in your court. If Boshko has dropped the game we'll get another GM to complete this....

	27-01-2003 00:09									#22
	Got spare money?

Berzerker? Larry? Can one of you guys pick this up as a replacement GM? I'm providing the maps. It should only take a couple of turns until Defiant cries uncle!

	03-02-2003 04:44									#23
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yawn.....wake me up when somebody makes a decision

	07-03-2003 09:12									#24
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Okay, well with 3 YES votes and a "do what ever you want" from the remaining active players, and no GM to decide, I'm declaring this game a draw between the CSA and Mexico. If anyone has a gripe with that, then they can step in and either take up one of the CD nations or the reigns as GM.

As I've commented on and been backed up by my ally Gerwald and orange (the third active player), the diplomatic and tactical situation indicates that Defiant's China has no allies, no stalemate line, and cannot withstand eventual defeat at the hands of of his constantly advancing enemies. He is already heavily outnumbered and at war with the other 3 active nations. Also, non of the 3 nations in CD have or contribute to a stalemate line even using the "all units support" junk sometimes employed by GMs here.

Sorry Defiant, but I did it for you in Hagakure, when I could have stalled it till we all quit. And that gave you a solo. If you disagree with this, then I'll take this game up again any time that you want. Right now I'm updating the scoring in the Apolyton player/particpation ratings. I expect you to add the .5 for both me and Gerwald in the Snowfire/winner standings which you have ownship of.