04-12-2002 21:48									#1
	Final Solution (Govermants thread) Full PM-box? Change here!

Anybody have any ideas how to simulate the "Final Solution" in a Nazi government?

I was thinking along the lines of a Decrease of 1pop count every so often in all of your citys. But thats impossible!

I know some people don't like that Idea of a nazi government type, but i'd just like one!

	04-12-2002 22:07									#2
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Create a concentration camp improvment... -2 happiness, -2 culture, plus one production, zero upkeep. Make it available to Nazi government only.

So you're basically using a modified factory to get slower growth (from having to use more entertainers) a slowdown in culture buildup and increased production for your war machine.

	04-12-2002 22:15									#3
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nice idea!

	04-12-2002 23:39									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Fosse Create a concentration camp improvment... -2 happiness, -2 culture, plus one production, zero upkeep. Make it available to Nazi government only. So you're basically using a modified factory to get slower growth (from having to use more entertainers) a slowdown in culture buildup and increased production for your war machine.

Morbidly enough, you could even use the factory graphic for it... just wouldn't require any coal to fuel it.

	05-12-2002 19:12									#5
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Change "Assimilation Chance" to 0% for Fascism. Then you, as the player, are forced to choose between keeping a large foreign population in conquered cities or finding some other "solution".

	05-12-2002 20:07									#6
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You could use a factory graphic for a concentration camp... but a modified barraks might be more grimly appropriate... reflecting the people.

0% assimilation... ouch. But it is pretty reasonable.

	06-12-2002 03:50									#7
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You have got forced labor - that is a good simulation.

	06-12-2002 05:07									#8
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I have been thinking about this, as it is a concept I wanted to fit into the WWII scenario I am working on. It is very morbid, but like I have said many a time CivIII is a simulation/strategy game, and I intend to make it as real as possible.

Concentration camps were a cheap sourse of labor, but the cost of transporting and maitaining the secrecy of the project negated much of their "benefit." Of course, if we were to implement it into the game as such (with mimal production benefit), who would build it. I doubt there are many Nazi CivIII players who would build it for fun, at least I hope there aren't. so with that in mind I agree with what others said, that it should provide a production bonus in exchange for unhappiness.

I was thinking of adding something else to the mix as well. Jews in WWII lived in concentrations in various places, and I wanted to restrict the improvement to these places. I was thinking of creating a "resource" (sounds so bad) for jews, represented by the star of david symbol, that would be in places like Poland and such on a European map. This would one, require 1.) that the facist government maintain a transport root to it's capital to build the improvments 2.) not sure if it is possible to require an improvemnet to have the resource in a city radiyus to build, but it would restrict the locations where concentration camps could be built 3.) in a multiplayer game, where people usually get into their scenario roles, it could be interesting to try and "libertate" camps by denying the enemy these resourse squares.

	06-12-2002 07:34									#9
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True, it is VERY MORBID but, guess what, so was history if you look closely enough . Your idea for a Jewish "resource" is not that different from the idea I had for a "Slave Labour System" small wonder. Can't do it yet, do to limitations in the editor, but basically it created a slave market in every city (production 2, culture -2, maintainence 2) on the same continent. The thing is that it required the "resource" of "Indigenous Populations"-which was supposed to reflect the use of African slaves in Europe and the US. I had also hoped to make this Sm. Wonder Obsolete with the discovery of "Emancipation", a non-prerequisite tech of the late middle ages (Available after democracy). I also had considered the idea of a forced labour camp "improvement" which was available only to fascist and communist governments. I don't include these things to upset people, but just so it can be a true reflection of the darker side of human history, if thats what you want! Things like the Crusades, Inquisition, Secret Police, Dictatorships, Human Sacrifice, martial law and the like all existed, so why not try and reflect them in the game, and make it a little less PC (Though I have to say that with pop-rush, city razing, forced labour and assimilation, this game is a LOT LESS PC than Civ2 or Civ1!!!)
Actually, the main problem I have is finding a way to create some of these things in the game. For instance, I wanted the Inquisition Small Wonder to increase happiness, but reduce science output! Can't do that, though . Just hope the editor continues to evolve!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	06-12-2002 21:09									#10
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I'd build it, but only if i was in one of my role playing moods! like pretending to be some Emporer!

	09-12-2002 19:44									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hey all,

One of the things that I decided to add to my mod was that a concentration camp will allow you to build slave labor, or workers that you can build that require no population cost and few shields. To offset this they will have a high maintenance cost, to reflect the money needed to build the security apparatus to keep them in line.

As far as graphics go, I was just going to modify the original industrial age worker for the purpose, but if anyone knows of an existing unit please let me know so I can save the time for the infinate other mod related things I have too do. Also, the slave labor unit that I would use in the WWII mod would have the star of david the Jews were forces to wear (it would be a yellow dot in the game, but people I hope will know what is), while the soviets would just have the normal unit. Anyone take offense to this, or is realism everyone's top priority like myself?

	09-12-2002 20:54									#12
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you could use a normal worker animation, and add the Star of David like a little symbol on the bottom left! or Bottom right!

	10-12-2002 01:12									#13
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Well, since I am putting symbols like that on all my WWII units, and I think I have almost 30 now (Things are getting out of hand ), I guess it wouldn't be too much work to do as you suggest.

	11-12-2002 17:00									#14
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"This source of jews has been exhausted"
"We have found a new source of jews"

Ack....

Increased shield production? How do you make tanks with human fat? Candles and soap, and book covers yes. Maybe the cover for the gubelwagen's seats? Instead of tiger skin, nigger skin? (I don't use that word, but if someone were to make gubels with those parametrics, they propably would. And it rhymes. Actually it rhymes with tigger, but tigger has more bounce.)

"Morbidly enough, you could even use the factory graphic for it... just wouldn't require any coal to fuel it."

As far as I know, human body isn't combustible on its own, it needs fuel. Except for spontaneus combustion and pyrokinetics.

It is true, afaik, that even when commanders in front were in desperate need of new troops (if there were any) at the final months of the Third Reich, transportations to Auchwitz-Birkenau, Bergen Belsen and others, still not liberated Kz-camps, took the priority over troops.

	11-12-2002 20:01									#15
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workers in cocentration camps (not all were Jews earmarked for extermination) were used as slave labor all over Germany, from farms around the camps themselves to shipyards in Keil. They were extremely important to Germany's war effort.

The exhaustion rate for the "Jew" resource would be high, for obvious reasons.

	11-12-2002 20:03									#16
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btw,

If anyone is taking offense to this thread, and I hope they aren't, just remember that it is an attempt to acomplish some level of realism. That in itself is a good thing.

	23-12-2002 21:48									#17
	Japanese Death Boats and the Thai-Burma Railway Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Also keep in mind the Japanese and their attrocities during the late 1930s and early 1940s.

The Japanese enslaved many Chinese, British and French in the late 1930s in their invasion of Manchuria (northern China) as well as when they occupied Thailand and most other southeast Asian countries.

Japan built a railway from Thailand/Burma to China which carried many natural resources.

The Allies bombed this main supply route heavily, but the Japanese employed the P.O.W.s as slave labor to constantly rebuild the railyway and bridges.

In fact, the movie Bridge Over the River Kwai was about a group of British P.O.W.s forced to build a bridge for the railroad and the harsh suffering they endured at the hands of the merciless Japanese and Korean conscripts.

One feature you could have would be that the Japanese get free workers for building railroads, but the workers die off frequently.

	24-12-2002 01:26									#18
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Wow, an American whos seen Bridge over the river Kwai.

Its the only prouf we British can offer to prove to those "We won the war"/"Would be speaking German" people who deny Britain was in the Pacific and deny we did anything to help in the war effort!

They always show that film here in Britain at VJ-day/V-Day, and it seems most of the Men and boys take time out to watch it, the women don't seem interested!!!


Well, very nice replys you guys! Should be good if we can ever get this thing to work!

	24-12-2002 02:34									#19
	An (Edited) Repost From A Long Time Ago ... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

First off, certain terms -- "Final Solution"; "Holocaust" -- obviously carry enormous emotional weight, so why use them? I believe the very contemporary "Ethnic Cleansing" covers all (and here I speak quite literally) sins from deportation to genocide.

Note that this thereby takes into account Stalin's pogroms; recent horrors in the Balkans; etc. and so is useful beyond only Nazi-specific atrocities.

As I agree these barbarities certainly can and perhaps should be incorporated, I would suggest "Ethnic Cleansing" be an "improvement", carried out locally, rather than a minor wonder, with the attributes "Resistant To Propoaganda" and "Reduce Corruption" AND generates 1 Unhappy Face.

Also, it should be Government-type specific, thereby vanishing with a change in Govs.

Humbly,

Oz

	24-12-2002 03:04									#20
	Attrocity Increase the size of your Attachments

If I recall correctly, Civ3 has a concept of attrocity which is to raze a city or use a nuclear weapon.

Perhaps if a civ discovers that you had an ethnic cleansing wonder or improvement, global opinion of your civ goes to the bottom immediately. Civs will ally against you, etc.

Also, you can only use it in a city that you've taken over from another civ.

The city ultimately benefits (jeez, did I just say that) because you'll not have any previous civ residents, the city will become native so you won't have unhappy people when you attack the previous owning civ.

Also, it would good if you got a free ride to nuke a civ that was using ethnic cleansing. IOW, the other civs wouldn't hold it against you if you nuked a country that was found to be using ethnic cleansing.

	24-12-2002 04:04									#21
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For one, nations normally align against a state participating in ethnic clensing to end the act, not use it justify their own use of ethnic clensing. Two negatives might make a positive, but to wrongs don't make a right . Then again in civilization games you are suposed to make a new world, and just because slavery/ethnic clensing/deportation is a modern moral taboo, for a good 2500 years of history most people had no problem with it. So to make ethnic clensing an automatic bad thing isn't in the spirit of the game. Hell, we have the Mongols as a civ now, and anyone who knows Indian history knows the whole "waste of life" story.

As far as the name, my work is strictly for my WWII scenario, so all my suggestions should be viewed in that light

	24-12-2002 06:24									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos For one, nations normally align against a state participating in ethnic clensing to end the act, not use it justify their own use of ethnic clensing.

Tell it to the Kurds ...