05-12-2002 00:10									#1
	Ways Germany could have won WWII Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm curious as to how people think Germany could have been victorious in WWII.

For this discussion, I'd like to have answers that are both plausible and somewhat specific. Also, assume the allies still act in the manner they did. Responses like "keep the Americans out" are too vague - how could Germany have done this? "Win battle X" also falls into this category - how could they have won it? Or, is it impossible for Germany to have won?

Discuss.....

	05-12-2002 00:42									#2
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killed hitler in a martyrful way, and then put someone with military acumen in the head office


BTW you dont have a time machine do you?

	05-12-2002 00:45									#3
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One thing that Hitler might have done is not to invade the Soviet Union and separate himself from Japan.

I don't think the English could ever have invaded and liberated France. The US would not have come into the war if Germany had not been allied with Japan.

Hitler could have just sat on France and the part of Europe he conquered and built and grown stronger.

The wild card was the Soviets. They were arming themselves and might have attacked. But I doubt it.

Then Hitler would have been in the race for the atomic bomb.

So my position is that Hitler should not have invaded the Soviets nor pressed the war with England.

	05-12-2002 00:46									#4
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This is not a very popular thing to discuss. I think that if he didn't open the eastern front he could've gotten away with it. Either that or if he didn't declare war on the US, he could've let the Americans fight their war in the Pacific, instead he gave Roosevelt a reason to assist Churchill. He made both the Russians and the Americans his enemies , what was he thinking? These two countries had vast amounts of resources and lots lots of man that were turned into soldiers.

So long...

	05-12-2002 00:48									#5
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What do you mean by "won" WW2?

How about (very vague, but):
Germany succeeds in preventing troops from retreating at Dunkirk, thereby demoralizing the Allies?

Germany doesn't attack Russia, and concentrates on the Western Front instead?

Germany doesn't attack Poland, and is satisfied with awhat it got at that point (Course, then it wouldn't have been world war 2)

Germany kills Dr Jones and captures the Ark and the Grail?

	05-12-2002 00:53									#6
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Pretty easily I think. Even if he had entered into conflict with the soviets if Hitler had simply allowed his generals to handle it and not overplayed his hand so much...

	05-12-2002 00:54									#7
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I read an interesting article by John Keegan in the book What if? He speculates that if Hitler pressed south through Turkey into the Levant and onto the ME oil supplies in 1941 rather than launching Barbarossa, he may have won the war. Germany would then have had all the oil it needed, been able to defeat British forces in North Africa with a pincer movement, and been well positioned to attack the Soviet Union from the south as well as the west. This movement into SU would have taken their oil supplies, greatly hurting their ablilty to defend/counterattack. Further, Turkey (which was neutral) and French Syria were very lightly defended and shouldn't have presented much of a problem for German forces.

	05-12-2002 00:55									#8
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By forming an alliance with the USA, Britain, Japan and France.

	05-12-2002 00:55									#9
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Was the Mid East a major producer of oil at that point? I thought that came later.

	05-12-2002 00:56									#10
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Edan makes a good point. Hitler's stopping before the war mushrooms wouldn't necessarilly be a victory in a world war.

But really the war with the West was thrust upon Hitler. He did not want it. Hitler's goal was always conquering the Soviet Union.

Maybe Hitler could have won if he had circled and isolated Stalingrad and Moscow rather than attack them directly?

	05-12-2002 00:57									#11
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war with the west was thrust upon him? If only the allies woulda just let me have Poland!

	05-12-2002 00:59									#12
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I'm not sure you can say "don't attack the USSR." Pounding Russia was one of Hitler's main goals--it would be like saying they shouldn't have invaded Poland.

The US Navy was at war with the German Navy from the middle of 1941 (via anti-submarine warfare). Throw in Lend-Lease and the US was pretty close to being a belligerent anyway. Active alliance with the UK against Japan would have turned into active support in Europe pretty quickly.

	05-12-2002 00:59									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Pioneer This is not a very popular thing to discuss. I think that if he didn't open the eastern front he could've gotten away with it. Either that or if he didn't declare war on the US, he could've let the Americans fight their war in the Pacific, instead he gave Roosevelt a reason to assist Churchill.

Something tells me that even if Hitler didn't open the eastern front, sooner or later Germany and the SU were going to come to blows. As for declaring war on the US, I think jimmytrick dealt with that. By allying himself with Japan, Hitler pretty much sealed his fate vis-a-vis the US. In fact, I have a feeling that the US would have gotten involved in Europe eventually anyway.

	05-12-2002 01:01									#14
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They could have occupied Poland only up to the Danzig corridor, claiming 'self-determination'. The West might have let Germany off the hook.

	05-12-2002 01:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Was the Mid East a major producer of oil at that point? I thought that came later.

It wasn't nearly as dominant as it is today, but Iran already had fairly sizeable production, and I think things were starting to get fired up in Saudi Arabia too.

	05-12-2002 01:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Edan makes a good point. Hitler's stopping before the war mushrooms wouldn't necessarilly be a victory in a world war. But really the war with the West was thrust upon Hitler. He did not want it. Hitler's goal was always conquering the Soviet Union. Maybe Hitler could have won if he had circled and isolated Stalingrad and Moscow rather than attack them directly?

Hitler didn't want war with Britain. France was another matter. Every Nazi in Europe had Versailles burned into his brain. Remember the scene with the railcar outside Paris? Hitler would have gone after France (with Benelux thrown in) at some point in his career. I don't know if Britain would stand by and let that happen.

	05-12-2002 01:13									#17
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*somehow manage to crush the british troops at dunkirk and prevent them from escaping
*convince the Japanese to attack the Soviet Union in late 1941 instead of the USA
*speed deployment of jet fighters

if Germany could have knocked the SU out of the war and managed to secure air superiority then who knows how the war would have finally turned out

	05-12-2002 01:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Germany succeeds in preventing troops from retreating at Dunkirk, thereby demoralizing the Allies?

I think if Germany had managed a greater victory at Dunkirk, the Allies wouldn't have sat there and taken it.

quote: Germany doesn't attack Russia, and concentrates on the Western Front instead?

There was nothing left to concentrate on, and, as mentioned, the SU was always one of the goals.

	05-12-2002 01:26									#19
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There was nothing left to concentrate on, and, as mentioned, the SU was always one of the goals

Basically in 39 they should have decided how they wanted to deal with the UK.

With almost a year to prepart transports and landing doctrine I think Sealion could have been successful in July/Aug 40. But this isn't a decision they should have put off until June 40.

If they didn't want to invade UK, a complete Med campaign should have been waged. Including better support of the Italian navy, taking Malta, etc. Once again this is something that should have been prepared, and been ready to launch right after the fall of France.

If you believe war with the SU was inevitable, they could have possibly won if they had focused on Moscow, and actually treated the locals better than Stalin did, which wouldn't have been that hard.

	05-12-2002 01:38									#20
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quote: I read an interesting article by John Keegan in the book What if? He speculates that if Hitler pressed south through Turkey into the Levant and onto the ME oil supplies in 1941 rather than launching Barbarossa, he may have won the war. Germany would then have had all the oil it needed, been able to defeat British forces in North Africa with a pincer movement, and been well positioned to attack the Soviet Union from the south as well as the west. This movement into SU would have taken their oil supplies, greatly hurting their ablilty to defend/counterattack. Further, Turkey (which was neutral) and French Syria were very lightly defended and shouldn't have presented much of a problem for German forces.

The british (and soviets) would probably send troops to the ME if they realized which way the germans were headed.

and it wouldn't be easy to attack up through the Caucasus mountains.

	05-12-2002 02:14									#21
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Hitler had to attack USSR. That was his whole "Lebensraum" philosophy.

Prior to 1942, he had several chances to turn things even more to his favor:
- Prevent the retreat of Allies from Dunkirk.
- Destroy RAF before start bombing British cities. Controlling the sky would make Operation Sealion a viable option.
- Setting a less ambitious goal when invading USSR. It should be obvious that if Moscow and Kiev fell, Leningrad could not hold out by itself.
- Then after invading USSR, have at least some patience about exterminating the "Untermenschen". People of the USSR, especially Ukrainians, initially welcomed Germans. He should at least wait until Moscow, Leningrad, and Kiev had fallen, and having Stalin's head on a pike. By pushing off the genocide, he would not only have gained potential allies, but would also have spared the logistical nightmare of transporting millions to concentration camps and pesky guerilla attacks.

If Hitler had done any of the above 4 things right, the outcome of the war could be totally different.

	05-12-2002 04:55									#22
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I wonder how big a difference preventing the evacuation of Dunkirk would have made. Yeah, it would have been demoralizing, but it's not like the allies took any equipment with them and it's not like they used those troops right away in offensive operations.

	05-12-2002 05:20									#23
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THe Fall of Dunkirk, with the Allied armies in it would have been a great disaster for Britian. After all, such a blow would have meant the core of its army lost, and presure to rush a new army unto the field to portect England itself.

I agree that War between HItler and the USSR was inevitable, as that was the whole point of the war in the first place. Crucial to this would have been getting England to sign out of the war, as Hitler wished. So I would agree with the previous comments about How Htiler could have pushed Britain out of the war. Without bases in Britain the eventual American war against HItler would have been more difficult. I think that England would not have stayed out indefinitelly anyway, but had it signed some sort of peace with Hitler, and had Hitler and his general been able to have Birtian of their backs form 1940-1942 or 43, and have the ability to buy oil on the world market for that time, their offensives against the USSR would have gone better off. I also agree the Germans were far too ambitious in their initial push into the USSR and the wasted good feelings towards them on the western borderlands of the USSR. BUt eventually they would have faced torubles, as they always planned to starve 40-50 million people anyway.

	05-12-2002 05:32									#24
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Hitler had to burn up Paris to the ground and then concentrate on invading England

	05-12-2002 05:37									#25
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They could have thrown down their guns and run toward the allied lines singing "99 Luft-balloons" at the tops of their lungs.

	05-12-2002 05:49									#26
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If Hitler hadn't treated the people of occupied Ukraine, Belarus and Poland like total shit, he would've had 50+ million (not sure of the population at that time) more allies against the SU...

	05-12-2002 06:50									#27
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Assuming that the diplomacy would work out the same way...

Set up artillery and a lot of machine guns on the eastern front, let Russia hurl itself inneffectively against the line, and concentrate on getting air and naval superiority in the channel. (Thats what I do in all the WWII games.) If they took down England, they could just blockade Leningrad and build up more airforce.

The production power would still not rival that of the US, but American carrier-based aircraft wouldn't be able to take on Germany's land-based aircraft. America's only strong ally would be Russia, but with a blockade at Leningrad, Russia would be inaccessible. Start bombing Russia, ruin its production. Invade Russia little by little. Make sure they can supply their army well. After that there are plenty of options.

	05-12-2002 06:54									#28
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0) Wait until Italy invades Albania and ally with Britain in its defense.

	05-12-2002 07:06									#29
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 *convince the Japanese to attack the Soviet Union in late 1941 instead of the USA

The IJA did try to attack the Soviet forces. They got the snot kicked out of them.

	05-12-2002 07:09									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Set up artillery and a lot of machine guns on the eastern front, let Russia hurl itself inneffectively against the line

There are things called bombers and tanks. Bombers take out the arti, tanks overrun machine guns.

Easy.