05-12-2002 02:47									#1
	Wang Fred Which? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

BRC recently raised the question, http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=69775, whether it was better to forego building wonders in favor of basic growth. In the course of that discussion, a similar, more focussed question emerged: if you had the choice between, say, rushing Sistine's Chapel versus building Forbidden Palace, which would you do? I put in my two cents. Then later the same day ( ) I found myself confronting exactly that choice. Thought I'd post the situation in a dedicated thread, to see what people thought.

Here's the situation: You are Wang Fred, King of the Koreans, caught in a scenario mid-game, Monarchy level, in which you are trailing most civs one way or another, but certainly still in a winnable game. You have been in a war that bogged down with the Romans, for supremacy on your (smallish) continent. To your east, the Aztecs and Germans have spread across a larger continent. Monty built the Great Library (I know, I know, it seems unlikely.) To your west, a larger continent holds a series of more advanced civs, apparently well along in their Middle Ages.

You do hold several advantages, including having gained the upper hand against the Romans, and having built the Great Lighthouse. You are also brokering contact: Neither Monty nor Bismark have established contact with the Spanish, French, Egyptians, etc. (And, what with Monty holding the GL, I would not trade contact, if I were you, until it became inevitable.)

Every civ but you is already building the Chapel. Your only hope for getting it (short of conquest ) is to rush it. Meanwhile, you have put off building your FP too long. Now, you have your leader. What do you do?

Here's a screenie:

Attachment: wang fred chu-mong.jpg
This has been downloaded 106 time(s).

	05-12-2002 02:50									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Here's more of the world:

Attachment: wang fred minimap.jpg
This has been downloaded 104 time(s).

	05-12-2002 02:52									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Here's the save:

Attachment: wang fred which.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	05-12-2002 02:54									#4
	Got spare money?

Here's a basic territory map:

	05-12-2002 02:55									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Arrgh! F*ckd up the attachment. I'll try again:

Attachment: wang fred zoom.jpg
This has been downloaded 104 time(s).

	05-12-2002 03:02									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm going to follow my own advice, and instruct Chu-Mong to build a Forbidden Palace right their in the city that settler is about to found (same tile).
Then I'll finish off the Romans, and prepare for war against the Aztecs, probably.
Anybody else want to play by rushing the Chapel? Or building an army (which I haven't done yet)? Or by holding Chu Mong for some other wonder? (preferably science-oriented, since it's the only way you'll get a golden age -- the Lighthouse and Colossus have you covered for the commercial wonder, btw)

Of some relevance: you do have four elite units (sword and a horse) down in the jungle, waiting to pick off hapless Roman units. Don't worry about legion-types: you're squatting on Ceaser's iron. (heh) So, if you're feeeling lucky, you might get to have your cake and eat it too.

edit: hee hee: 5 replies in this thread so far .... and they're all mine.

edit again: I know, I know: we're poor. That's because just emptied most of our treasury to buy theology to create the scenario. Sorry.

	05-12-2002 03:08									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

This is perfect. There are so many things that could be done. My opinion:

Your number 1 priority is the Romans. They must go. I really do not see an optimal FP location as of right now. If the time span could be made reasonably short, I would build the FP in Pusan or Ulsan(?) and then plan on rushing a Palace in Roman territory. I do not know of how reasonable this is in this game, though. You are on a fairly small continent, so you are probably needing to trade for luxuries. How many are you in control of, and how many are you borrowing?

quote: You do hold several advantages, including having gained the upper hand against the Romans, and having built the Great Lighthouse.

As of now, I'd say nail the Romans. Build your FP nearby your capital, and wait until you can safely rush the Palace in the Roman Empire.

	05-12-2002 03:17									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

BRC: actually, I was thinking right where Chu Mong is now placed would be a pretty effective FP site (as soon as the settler beneath him had built the city, of course). In what was once the heart of the Roman Empire, near the ruins of Rome .
I have, AFAIK, at least 3 and I think it was 4 luxuries hooked up. Enough, in other words, for conversion to republic.
Now, I was originally planning on trying to build my way to victory, meaning, boot off the Romans, culture-flip that Aztec incursion, then make peace, and trade and learn my way to dominance (Korean style).
Still, the situation is ripe for military conquest, so the game seems wide open to me. I'd particularly love to capture Monty's "Great" Library for at least a turn, before the onset of education.

	05-12-2002 03:30									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: BRC: actually, I was thinking right where Chu Mong is now placed would be a pretty effective FP site (as soon as the settler beneath him had built the city, of course). In what was once the heart of the Roman Empire, near the ruins of Rome .

Now that I think about it, that spot would be ok. Do you plan on jumping the Palace to another continent later on in the game, or do you plan on sticking with this continent? I think that that should play some role in your choice. Go get Monty. Make it count though.

	05-12-2002 03:43									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by BRC Do you plan on jumping the Palace to another continent later on in the game, or do you plan on sticking with this continent? I think that that should play some role in your choice. Go get Monty. Make it count though.

If I go conquest I will jump, most definitely. But I'm still torn, and might give building a try. In which case, the jump would not be necessary.

Except that, P'yong___ was my Colossus city, and it would be a shame to lose all that trade. (That palace pre-build was a major mistake, btw. Time to build the aqueduct there, ASAP.)

	05-12-2002 03:49									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't have PTW yet, so I can't load this so my response is based entirely upon the maps.

I wouldn't found a city where Chu Mong is simply because it overlaps with Pyongsong, and modifed OCN has the most effect on corruption / waste. (See the threads about corruption / waste and how to reduce.)

I would also relocate Tamuin two tiles south onto the forest once captured. (Assuming that Tamuin doesn't have a useful Great Wonder.)

"New Tamuin" is where I'd build the FP if it could be done in a reasonable timeframe. (If not, then Inch'On) is where I'd build the FP.

As for the great leader, I'd send him to Inch'On and rush Sistine's Chapel there.

	05-12-2002 04:01									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: If I go conquest I will jump, most definitely. But I'm still torn, and might give building a try. In which case, the jump would not be necessary.

It's your call as to what you do with the FP/Palace. I think we both agree that Sistine is out of the question. Good Luck!

	05-12-2002 04:04									#13
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn I would also relocate Tamuin two tiles south onto the forest once captured. (Assuming that Tamuin doesn't have a useful Great Wonder.) "New Tamuin" is where I'd build the FP if it could be done in a reasonable timeframe. (If not, then Inch'On) is where I'd build the FP.

I like your suggestion. I don't want to wait until Tamuin is flipped, though, and don't want to start a war with the Aztecs yet, either. So I think I'll just move onto the tile you suggest and build it there next turn.

Not only will that play better in terms of wasted/nonwasted tiles, it should also give me cultural sway over on the continent to the east.
Thanks, joncunn!

	05-12-2002 04:24									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Aarrgh. Messed up my various saves. In the version I posted, you will have to buy theology. (I guess it was Feudalism I blew our budget on.)
It may cost you contact, which probably makes the Chapel too costly for most players' tastes (giving up contact brokerage).

	05-12-2002 06:38									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'd lean toward Sistine, actually. The towns that are farthest from the capitol aren't big enough to worry about the corruption / waste. And if Rome has no iron, you can fight a protracted war (someone had a GREAT phrase for this maybe a month ago) until you generate another GL, then wipe them out.

	05-12-2002 10:00									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think the decision between Sistine (or another available wonder) and the FP is always tough -- it usually comes down to circumstance, IMHO. But given your map and situation, I'd rush Sistine (or another available wonder). The FP is the most important wonder, great or small, IMHO, but your map doesn't justify a leader-rushed FP. I'd manually build an FP close to my palace (Pusan looks inviting), and count on a later leader for a Palace relocation south. I'd then count on later leaders for Palace relocations to new continents as I expanded off of my own land mass.

Don't know what's available, but JSB and Sun Tzu's are a little less attractive with the landmass size, Sistine's slightly less attractive with the expensive cathedrals of a noon-religious civ. I might be inclined to build an army for the HE; might be interested in Leo's; or might take Sisitine, but I probably wouldn't rush an FP here.

Catt

	05-12-2002 13:56									#17
	Tired of ads?

Definitely no need for a FP here, unless you're prepping it for a palace jump.

Sistine/Bach's/Sun Tzu's are likewise out, continent's too small. Let the mainland build it and STEAL it.

Frankly, I'd go with Leo's. Gonna need that when you upgrade to go to war. Or perhaps better still, build an army, stick those elites in it, and cut Rome to ribbons while building the HE for even MORE leaders. It's the Industrial wonders you really want, as the medieval ones won't do you much good with a continent that size.

	05-12-2002 20:19									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab Sistine/Bach's/Sun Tzu's are likewise out, continent's too small. Let the mainland build it and STEAL it.

Sistine's effects are not limited to the continent the way Sun Tzu's and Bach's are, but I often still think twice about how badly I want to build (versus capture later) Sistine when I'm not a religious civ. Sure, I'll eventually have cathedrals in most cities, but without the half-price cathedrals from a religious civ, a significant impact on my civ's performance from the effects of Sistine come a lot later in the game for me -- giving me time to go about focusing on other things and capturing Sistine later, when needed.

Catt