05-12-2002 08:12									#1
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I'm not sure if I'm allowed to start threads so I may soon find myself being inquisitioned but what is our attitude or goals going to be in relation to Wonders?

Typically you are competing against the AI and they usually have an advantage but we are only playing against human players and we should all be on an equal playing field except for terrain differences.

	05-12-2002 08:26									#2
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Of course you're not! What were you thinking? There are strict anti-thread sanctions against new members of the tribe! I call for the High Preist to sacrifice Thrumble on the altar in recompense to this insult to our ancestor's memories!

Just some humor, thrumble, nothing to worry about. Everyone has a voice in our tribe, as long as it doesn't disagree with our Supreme Leader's sentiments.

[ooc] I think we'll deal with wonders on a case by case basis. In direct answer to your inquiry, we will in no way be avoiding attempting wonders... particularly with the blessing of a Great Leader. [/ooc]

	05-12-2002 09:09									#3
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[OOC]

Thrumble,

This is a great topic and one we haven't approached before here. What difference will playing against humans make in the competition for wonders?

We should really discuss this, but the thread should be labelled OOC

	05-12-2002 09:51									#4
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Points to ponder:

-What wonders fit with the personalities of the other teams? (Lego, GoW especially) Ambassadors are encouraged to chime in here.

-It is well known what wonders players put the most importance on, but how should we use this knowledge? Race to the req. techs and starting those asap OR let the other civs race for them, and content ourselves with less contested, but still good, wonders?

-Are there wonders that fit our team well, which we'd like to get as a matter of pride?

I'll speculate on these myself later - I am going to bed.

	05-12-2002 11:30									#5
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I would love to hear what Astroligix has to say about this topic.

My opinion? Our city is on a river and surrounded by hills. We could have an Wonder powerhouse in our hands.

I tend to build towards the best possible wonder and if that fails, accept a switch to a backup. There isn't much point in going for the "backups" if we have the production to get the prized wonder.

As to the question of what suits our civ, that's hard to say.

While I love how cheap the Colossus is, and how effective it can be for the city that builds it, it would send us into a GA, which is not likely what we want so early in the game.

The Great Wall could be an invaluable asset to our team as it doubles the effect of walls.

The Oracle, Sistine, and JS Bachs all fit our civ's character and one of our traits. We should seriously consider these wonders, especially if we find that we have few luxuries.

The Pyramids are always a great boon to the civ that owns them but I'm not sure if they fit our character. We'll have to see.

The Great Library is very useful and may fit with our character as we have a great desire to learn about other civilizations.

--Togas

	05-12-2002 12:49									#6
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quote: Of course you're not! What were you thinking? There are strict anti-thread sanctions against new members of the tribe! I call for the High Preist to sacrifice Thrumble on the altar in recompense to this insult to our ancestor's memories!

Thrumble is acting fully within his rights as an Iberian; there has been no insult to our ancestor's spirits. If our Great Despot Togas is displeased, that is his business, not mine.

	05-12-2002 13:14									#7
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[OOC]

I'm thinking that if we can get our first pick (and so forth), this would be my list of Ancient Wonders:

1. Great Library. C'mon, it's just obvious. It won't trigger our GA (which would be too early if it did) and it's AMAZINGLY powerful. I assume its power would be even greater in a multiplayer game where research competition is fierce and being able to throw the bulk of our funds at upgrades and rushes (once we get republic or monarchy) could have rather substantial benefits (especially for a commerical civilization).

2. Great Wall. I hope people remember my arguments in other threads on how critical I believe city walls will be in a multiplayer game. DOUBLING the effectiveness of these great defensive tools will give us a rather signficant defensive edge until the discovery of metallurgy (which is unfortunately roughly concurrent to Lux Invicta getting those Sipahi... we'll have to watch them closely).

3. Pyramids. It unfortunately has a chance of causing our GA, but the same with EVERYONE else... Think about it... GS = Ind+Rel, ND = Rel, GoW = Ind, RP = Rel, Vox = Ind, LI = Ind, Lego = Ind. Eveyrone has at least one trait covered by this wonder, so everyone will be uneasy about going for it. That said, it is an AMAZINGLY powerful wonder for REX and for growth throughout the game. Its importance should not be underestimated and we might want to go for it IF we aren't already doing well on putting granaries into each of our cities (if we already have granaries just about everywhere, this wonder would likely be a waste given the risk of the GA).

4. Great Lighthouse. This one can be bumped up to #3 or even #2 if we're on an archiapelago map, but then EVEYRONE will be wanting to get their hands on it . It risks a GA (commercial trait), but that would be worth it if there are "lost civs" that we think we could reach with it and thus become the sole link between two regions of the map (think of the amazing power in that... too bad everyone will think of that ).

I do not believe that we should build either the Colossus or the Oracle unless we're REALLY pressed and we have an amazingly compelling reason (a complete lack of luxuries, for instance). We're playing on REGENT level, so being short on luxuries won't be anywhere nearly the problem it would have been on Emperor. Given the painfully short duration of the Oracle, it should only be used if no-one has bothered to build it and we need it to get our GA because the Sistine Chapel and J.S. Bach's are already taken (though I don't know if obsolete wonders work for causing GA's). The Colossus, as argued in a previous thread, would we believe guarantee our GA... something which it would do FAR TOO EARLY. That's very lamentable, considering how powerful the Colossus is, but Madrid isn't a coastal city able to build it anyhow

As for the Hanging Gardens, I forget which traits it covers, but I know that it has extremely limited utility.

	05-12-2002 13:19									#8
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Industrious, I believe. I'll check the .bic file.

EDIT: yes, it is industrious.

	06-12-2002 01:52									#9
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[OOC]

First of all, I think that, because Spain was always a trading civ (phoenicians, greeks, romans, carthaginians), the wonders which will fit better to our civ, for the Ancient Ages, are the Colossus and the Lighthouse, .
But because our religious trait, and for Roleplay purposes, The Oracle could fit well too.

For the Middle Ages, of course, JS Bach and the Sistine, but, if the travels over the seas become justified in our game, The Magellan's Voyage should be a must, in regard of the Spanish history with the two Americas.

That said, the Great Wall, the Great Library and the Pyramids are certainly main goals in our situation of non-warmonger civ. I'm not sure that
the GL will be so useful in our game, without AI civs, because all the human civs will be at the same level of speed in researching technologies. We'll be certainly able to
trade techs with other civs, particularly with Legoland.

Concerning the wonders for triggering the GA, I don't fully agree with you.

The civilopedia clearly says :



This means that we can build ONE of the above religious or commercial Wonders without the risk of causing our GA.

In my own games, I never build a Wonder before having at least 4 cities :

one city to build settlers (1)
one city, with barracks in it, to build units
one city to build workers or units
one city to build the first wonder. Often, this city is the capital or the second city.

The advantage to build wonders in the second city is that if it fails, it's always possible to switch
to a Palace, in case of building another wonder were not possible.

In our case I think the city (1) could be a city at the NW of Madrid, near el Rio Tajo (with many flood plains and possibly
some hills in the surroundings).

To build the Colossus or the Lighthouse, we need a powerful coastal city.
Thus, this city could be founded at the SE of Madrid, possibly with plains and hills in the surroundings in order to have enough shields.

Currently we are researching Bronze Working, that will allow us to build the Colossus.

If we do focus to build a wonder, I recommend to start the Colossus ASAP and then, to research
1.Warrior code (in order to have Archers ASAP),
2.Writing and
3.Map Making, which will allow us to switch to The Lighthouse if the Colossus fails.

Last edited by astrologix on 06-12-2002 at 01:57

	06-12-2002 02:20									#10
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I use the same procedure as astrologix, mostly...

We should try to make agreements with the Legomen,
as soon as we can. I suspect they want to build more wonders instead of a massive army.

Well, will our pact require them to maintain a capable army?
I don't want us to be their armoury, while they build the nice things. (as I stated once before)

If we can persuade them to build less wonders and more units,
it would be good for our own wonder-projects!

	06-12-2002 02:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Well, will our pact require them to maintain a capable army? I don't want us to be their armoury, while they build the nice things. (as I stated once before)

I think they are smart enough to realize they better defend themselves.

On the subject of Wonders concerning Legoland, I did a little research into why Carthaginians were they're first choice and Egypt there second. The trait these two share is industrious which translates to Masonry as one of their opening techs. Now, why Carthage first? Carthage starts with Masonry and Alphabet.

Take a look at the tech tree; this translates to a faster trip to Construction. With our research pact, they may try and push for us to research Iron Working while they push for Mathematics.

I basically think they are beelining for the Great Wall. They could even start building the Pyramids and attempt to switch over to The Wall when they get that chance.

Just a theory, but with their stated stance in the game, that is the glove that fits, I think

The question is:
Is it in to our advantage to help them get there?

	06-12-2002 02:59									#12
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double post

	06-12-2002 03:15									#13
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Unless we are on a pangea map, I'd say the Great Lighthouse is the most important wonder. On a standard continents map, triremes able to cross sea squares can usually find their way to another continent. The benefits would be even higher than on archipelagos if we immediately buy communications to all the civs on the continent and start to trade techs with all of them within the same turn.
The Great Library is really useful only if we are left behind in tech. There will be a huge race for it, so if we build it we should be ready to switch to something else if we fail (so if we need the great library and it seems that the map is not a pangea, we should build the great library in a coastal city so we can switch to the lighthouse).
I agree with Arnelos about Pyramids, but I'm more sceptical about the Great Wall because walls are really cheap in Civ3, and we only need them near the borders.

	06-12-2002 03:22									#14
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As Spain we cannot build the Colossus. It would set our our GA. I've personally tested this (read: accidentally did it in my play-test games with Spain).

I've also "tested" Wonder building with a wonder combo. If we build any Commercial Wonder (Great Lighthouse) and later build a Religious Wonder (Oracle, JS Bach, Sistine) the 2nd Wonder built WILL set off our GA.

Frankly, I think the Warmonger civs will beeline to Great Library so they can kill research and build up a massive army.

Great Wall for Legoland makes a lot of sense. We should, perhaps, inquire with them about what Wonders they are shooting for with the "stated goal" of not competing with them over it, then still try to beat them to it ... unless we decide that there is a better Wonder out there for us to shoot for (Pyramids?)

--Togas

	06-12-2002 03:26									#15
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playing as Spain... i built the Observatory and got a GA...

I had one before that i think... just cant remember what it was.

	06-12-2002 04:06									#16
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astrologix,

If that's what the 'pedia says, it's clearly wrong...

I have frequently received my GA from a single wonder (as Togas reports). It is also the case that build 2 wonders that together cover both your civ traits ALWAYS causes your GA if you haven't already had one.

	06-12-2002 05:07									#17
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Lots of good input, everyone.

My 2c

Colossus : Obviously only if we have a strong coastal city, but even then, I consider this to be a fall-back wonder if we get beat to something else. Especially considering we're already a commercial civ.

Pyramids : I believe this has the potential to give its owner a major advantage in this game (with no AI). All the teams are on equal REX footing (ignoring civ charastics), and this would give a possible crucial edge to one civ.

Oracle: Same as Colossus, except we're already religious.

Great Library : I be shocked if this wasn't on the GoW agenda, and as such, it would be strategic to deny them it. However, as someone above commented, I'm not convinced this will be as beneficial in a no AI game.

Great Lighthouse : Umm, nah. Sorry, it's never blown my socks off.

The Great Wall : Good fallback to Great Library. We may not need it if we put all our cities on hills.

Once we see our surroundings at bit, we'll have a better idea of what we're best suited for. If we discover a really sweet second city location, I'd be in favour of essentially treating it like our new starting point, and leaving production happy Madrid to build the Pyramids.

Order of preference: Pyramids, Library, Wall, the rest.

	06-12-2002 19:08									#18
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Great reasearch, dejon!
Also, great research, plaguerat!
I was thinking a little about this topic, and Great library and great wall seem to be some of the most usefull wonders we can get. Although they will be highly disputed , we have a city on hills, and that is up to our advantage...
Great wall may proove to be the greatest thing if we end up bordering GoW or LUx, or even Vox ( I talk more on my impressions on them on another topic...) Also, if GoW tries an early rush (probbly over a nearby AI), they may very easily come to loose the Library Run.
We should beeline to G. library, maybe get pyramids if we have the chance, and set our Golden Age with sistine latter on...

	06-12-2002 19:46									#19
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If we have any preference for the Great Wall, we may need to consider talking it over with Legoland soon. I'm fairly sure that is what they are going for. Not necessarily let on to what we think are their plans but ask questions that might help to verify their intentions. [edit: And knowing this and the lengths they are willing to go to get what they want might allow us to set up another deal like our original pact, where we promise not to try for the Great Wall in exchange for "X".]

It may be that they only want to get access to city walls by having Masonry immediately, but my earlier post on the matter might suggest they may be trying for a longer view.

I'm not sure to what length we want to go to help them or hurt them. If we intend to play nice for a while, coordinating and co-operating might be best to maximize the benefits of the relationship.

el_ruby_maser

	06-12-2002 20:43									#20
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I think that Legoland going for the GW really fits in with their overall stratigy of surviving through the Anchant and Middle ages, while they build up a huge research base.

Also, do not discount the Hanging Gardens, It would allow for any civ to have a very productive city base for quite a while and allow them to quickly switch to Republic without having to worry about the happiness issues that would be present.

It all depends on the actual map and who we find. We might have 1/2 of the Nations on anouther Contenant and would be Isolated until we are able to send out Galleys to search for them. If that is so, we would be better off going with the Lighthouse and maybe Pyramids. If we are mostly or all on the same contenant, we should go for GL ASAP.

If anything, we need to try to get Librairies as soon as possible, to get our own research engine started. But we need to have defenses too.

E_T

	06-12-2002 22:57									#21
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[OOC]

Togas & Arnelos,

I've played a game at Chieftain level and Accelerated production to test the effects of the Colossus and The Lighthouse.

You are right, The Colossus causes the GA for Spain (I guess this is a bug on the settings of this Wonder).
I've rollebacked the game, and changed the production of Madrid to the construction of The Lighthouse, and the result is
that The Lighthouse DON'T TRIGGER the GA.

Thus, I think that The Ligthhouse should be our goal if we can confirm that we are in an island or in a small continent, or if
we find evidences that there are good possibilities to find others civs over the seas.
As shown in my precedent post, the path to Map Making is relatively easy for us (I missed Pottery in the path, but this technology
is easy to obtain). This path has some advantages : Writing will allow to make treaties and embassies with other civs and Map Making allows to trade maps.
For our commercial civ, it makes sense to pursue those technologies ASAP.

Otherwise, if we could obtain the related techs with other civs, we could try to build The Pyramids (it won't trigger the GA, I've got evidence of this) or The Great Library instead of the Lighthouse.

As yet said in other posts, The Great Wall is mainly interesting for Legoland (we should let them to build this Wonder !) and the utility of The Hanging Gardens or the Oracle seems minor.

Now, it's important to know that, if we get the Lighthouse or the Pyramids in the Ancient Age, we'll trigger our GA if we get Bach or Sistine later ! But I think it's worth to have one of those Middle Age Wonders, even if it causes our GA before we have our UU.

	06-12-2002 23:22									#22
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We know, Out of Character, what the best wonders are. We will have to decide In Character what wonders we want to pursue depending on what our characters feel and where the storyline takes us.

When the time comes, Let's see what is said about each of the Wonder possibilities.

--Togas

	07-12-2002 00:12									#23
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Just my two cents about this issue:

IMHO I don't think that Glory of War will go for the Great Library. They will probably get their techs from the civs they fight in exchange for peace.

	07-12-2002 04:18									#24
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I think that these should be our priorities:

1) The Great Lighthouse
2) The Colossus
3) The Great Library

	07-12-2002 04:55									#25
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Lighthouse is only important on some maps. We don't knwo yet if it is important to us...... but when we do so will probably everybody else.

I love the pyramids. So do most people. It will be a race to get it, but worth it. The risk is in the possibility of setting off an early GA. Therefore, I would put it in the second highest catagory, but towards the top.

Colosus - Early GA. Only usefull if we are desperate. As we are awsome, that will never happen, so we should offer someone else the opportunity to build it in return for some favor to us...... I will present it so to Gathering Stromboli, who I am diplo for. I suggest others take this same approach...."we will let you build the colosus if you let us build such and such...." this is easy to check on also as we know which civs are building what wonders.

Great Wall. We need to do a lot of research before we can build it. It will be highly usefull to us however. Place it just after pyrimids, as this does expire and pyrimids don't.

Library. originally, I felt this one would be our saving grace. Now, however, I don't think so. I think we will be either #1 or #2 in research (with legoland), and will probably not get any use from this wonder. However, keeping it from someone else has large benifits as well that we must not forget. If we want to stay at the top of the research ladder, best to not just hand away free techs every now and then.

Hanging gardens - I don;t expect us to go for monarchy, so we will probably never have the chance to built this until to late. That said, I don;t care that much because it is limited and a possible GA starter combined with the wall or pyrimids (IIRC). Avoid it, and use it like the colosis.

Orical - pretty much the same as for the hanging gardens, except I suspect we will have the opportunity, just not the desire.

In summery

lighthouse - as appropriate
Library
Pyrimids
wall
nothing else as it just wastes our resources

	07-12-2002 06:50									#26
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Godking, are you supposed to make a wonder-deal with them, before we have met them in-game?
Just wondering.