05-12-2002 12:27									#1
	FAM Pre-Bill Discussion: "Grand Coalition" -vs- Germany Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

FAM Pre-Bill Discussion: "Grand Coalition" -vs- Germany

The current plan is to declare war on Germany when our peace agreement comes up for renegotiation in 10 turns.

All other peace treaties come up for renegotiation on the same turn except for England (which will be the turn after).

Here is the plan I would like interested members of the Senate to discuss, alter if desired, and prepare for a Senate Bill which would pass before the date of invasion (in about a week and a half real time, 10 turns game time). This is due to the fact that the NewCon requires Senate approval for any MPP, Military Alliance, or Trade Embargo requested by the Foreign Affairs Minister (FAM). So here's the plan I would like us to discuss:

THE PLAN: A GRAND COALITION TO RID THE WORLD OF THE GERMAN MENACE
(aka The "Divide-And-Conquer" Plan, as I previously referred to it)

- Sign MPPs with preferably Greece, England, and the Aztecs 1 turn before war or on the same turn as war is declared (just before declaration). These can be packaged with the renegotiation of peace treaties if done on the same turn as the war declaration.

- Sign military alliances against Germany with as many other nations as possible immediately after war is declared. Rome, Japan, India, Russia, Babylon, and Persia are all critical along with Greece, England, and the Aztecs if they didn't agree to MPPs. Zululand, China, and the Iroquois can be done without, but we should go ahead and sign with them just to prevent Germany from having them declare on us.

- Sign trade embargoes against Germany with all parties willing to do so (which would be everyone who declared war on Germany for sure, probably some who would be unwilling in addition).

PROS:

- Given that the current military technologies given a decisive advantage to the defender (cavalry -vs- riflemen = high offensive casualties), overwhelming force may be just the trick to prevent this from turning into a stalemate that simply saps our resources.
- Completely isolates Germany
- Interdicts Germany's ability to research technology and techwhore it for income and to prevent us from techwhoring at the very start of the war
- ALL nations, not just our own, will be undergoing the same impacts of war weariness.
- Significantly reduce the likelyhood that Germany will be unable to use its enormous financial and technological assets to induce our many enemies into declaring war against us
- Germany's defeat as a the technological leader is quite assured. Even if Greece, the Aztecs, or England gained a little territory out of the war, we are likely to gain more and become (finally!) the undisputed leader in technology.
- The common agreements and the common war may give us a temporary relations boost which we can exploit for better trade deals with other AI civilizations

CONS:

- Forces us to fight for 20 turns or until Germany is destroyed (thankfully, however, everyone else will be under the same war weariness)

OTHER IMPLICATIONS:

- Our goal must be to annihilate Germany, not simply hurt it. As another aptly put it: "Wipe them out. All of them" Within the context of our "Grand Coalition", the goal will be to remove the German menace from the world (as suggested in this plan's title)

- While less force may be required to accomplish the goal of removing Germany as a technological power, we may have to be swift in taking German cities (especially Berlin with its wonder(s)) if we want to get most of them. The SMC should take this into account.

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AFTERMATH

After this plan's execution, we should be the undisputed leader in technological research, our cities by that point should be mostly industrialized and our production will be able to stomp just about anyone into the ground.

The arguments of whether this should be the last great war or whether we should go after others (Zululand, England, Greece, etc.) can be made after this war with Germany is over. The path from the end of this war will be up to those leaders who will be around to guide us then. My concern is to getting to having final victory within sight, since it has not yet come into our grasp, despite the claims of some...

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So, please, begin. We need to have a Senate Bill passed on the subject before the war starts. We have roughly a week and a half to do so.

	05-12-2002 12:49									#2
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I suggest to leave Engand out of the "Deal". We want to go after them soon, too. If we can get them to Ally with Germany, then we can have two things happen.

1) We can work on them also at the same time
2) We get the added benifit of them declareing on us when it comes to War Weariness factors

England has two Wonders to Annex, MV in Nottingham & NU in London.

E_T

	05-12-2002 12:51									#3
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I suggest to leave Engand out of the "Deal". We want to go after them soon, too.

Do we?

I know the war with Germany has a sizable Senate majority behind it, but I'm not at all sure that war with Germany AND England garners the same Senate support (using that unofficial war poll way back when as the indicator).

SECOND:

And if our goal IS to take on England next, can we not wait until Germany has already been vanquished (at which point all the military alliances go -POOF!-). If that's the plan, we might not sign an MPP with England, prefering to do a military alliance instead. That way we take them down one-at-a-time rather than trying to take on two at once. As I've said before, "Divide-And-Conquer"

	05-12-2002 13:27									#4
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on German invasion and conquest.

English participation in the alliance

	05-12-2002 14:28									#5
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I completely agree with FAM Arnelos on this issue. England must participate in this war, and we can easily take them out later if we wish.

	05-12-2002 17:08									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I completely agree with FAM Arnelos on this issue. England must participate in this war, and we can easily take them out later if we wish.

Agreed. The germans could easily carry England to their side, and this will create unnecessary problems to us... at this point.
Later...

	05-12-2002 18:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I completely agree with FAM Arnelos on this issue. England must participate in this war, and we can easily take them out later if we wish.

I also agree. We do not need Liz harassing our flank whilst we fight Germany.

	05-12-2002 19:08									#8
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Fully agree with the destruction of Germany (even if it takes more than 20 turns...) and can see both sides of having England with us or not as I would like us to control ALL of abananaba major. They can wait, or we can take them both, doesn't matter.

	05-12-2002 19:24									#9
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What UnOrtho said.

	05-12-2002 20:54									#10
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Agreed, leave England out of the MPP, but sign an alliance against Germany with them.

Also, let's add Embargos against Zulu and China, either in this bill or a seperate one.

	05-12-2002 22:19									#11
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I agree that we should sign MPPs with the Aztecs and Greeks. These agreements FORCE them to be at war with Germany for the duration of our war with them. As for England, a simple alliance would suffice to keep our eastern border clear.

Should we be concerned about the possibility of Rome or Russia being drawn in by Germany? Germany has the funds and the bargaining chips to bring most any nation into the war.

During the duration of this war we should consider using Wartime Mobilization.

--Togas

	06-12-2002 00:46									#12
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Here is a thought.

How powerful is England in relation to Germany? There are several things to consider.

England, Aztec and Greece border Germany. Germany will be busy with all of them. Their forces will be spread out but Otto can not resist a weak foe. He will conquer the weakest cities. It is even reasonable to assume that Germany will take one or two cities from england an the other boarder civs. We should target those cities for conquest. Look to Germany to launder the cities.

Let Germany take what is left of the aztec occupied american cities. They will be assimilated.

Watch for german occupation in england. We will liberate them then assimilate them.

We can still weaken our future foes with this war. We just have to let germany take them first.

Mss

	06-12-2002 00:49									#13
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Here is a thought. How powerful is England in relation to Germany? There are several things to consider. England, Aztec and Greece border Germany. Germany will be busy with all of them. Their forces will be spread out but Otto can not resist a weak foe. He will conquer the weakest cities. It is even reasonable to assume that Germany will take one or two cities from england an the other boarder civs. We should target those cities for conquest. Look to Germany to launder the cities. Let Germany take what is left of the aztec occupied american cities. They will be assimilated. Watch for german occupation in england. We will liberate them then assimilate them. We can still weaken our future foes with this war. We just have to let germany take them first. Mss

Now someone is thinking along the right lines

	06-12-2002 04:17									#14
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We covet England's lands and neither want nor need England's assistance in the war on Germany.

	06-12-2002 04:41									#15
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We definitely shouldn't sign an MPP with England.

An alliance is another matter. I'd say we should sign all the other agreements we want, then see what England's price is. If they want more than one or two hundred gold or so, leave them out.

	06-12-2002 04:50									#16
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Typically, military alliances against isolated powers already at war with several other civs are free.

	06-12-2002 20:38									#17
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In fact, England might be willing to pay us money to join the alliance once the MPPs are activated.

	08-12-2002 04:48									#18
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We only need to ally with Germany's neighbors. Other alliances are a waste of money.

	08-12-2002 05:21									#19
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quote: During the duration of this war we should consider using Wartime Mobilization.

This seems like a no brainer, but....


From the Civilopedia

A civilization that is mobilized:
* May only build military units and military city improvements
* May not build peacetime improvements
* May not return to Normalcy until a Peace Treaty is signed

What that means is you won't be able to start the Theory of Evolution or Hoover's Dam, both of which are currently planned to start during the conflict.

You will be able to start the Military Academy as a Shield holder, but not the Palace. And being a Military improvement, the Military Academy will complete lickety split. Make lots of Armies, then the Pentagon...

But we need Hoover's

	08-12-2002 05:45									#20
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That's why I'm against Mobalizing. Unless we come on some DIRE Emergency where we would need it, shouldn't even consider this.

E_T

	08-12-2002 11:19									#21
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn In fact, England might be willing to pay us money to join the alliance once the MPPs are activated.

I would think so too.

Mil ally with england

	09-12-2002 22:57									#22
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I disagree. Every civ that's been listed in the top post as a MPP partner for the Germany civ needs to be on our side because otherwise, the Germans might get bribe them to enter the war against us which would result in a multi-front war for us.

quote: Originally posted by realpolitic We only need to ally with Germany's neighbors. Other alliances are a waste of money.