05-12-2002 22:57									#1
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No bugs, no suggestions, nothing like that, I just need to vent....

Been playing CIV since the old DOS game up thru and including PTW. I've never beaten CIVIII or PTW at Emperor or better. Recently had a game at Emperor, I was America and kickin' major butt... It was mid-1800's,
and America was by far the major power. I merely had a relatively small island of Babylonians and a somewhat bigger island of Zulu to 'assimilate', but with my power and time left in the game, I was poised for greatness....well, that is until there was an election for Secretary-General of the UN.
Funny thing is, I suffered a humiliating defeat, yet history will remember me as Lincoln the Magnificient...thats the highest level! *sigh*

	05-12-2002 22:59									#2
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thats why i turn off the pansie-classed victories.

no one gets elected, no one leaves the planet, no one has "sufficient" temples.

it's all or nothing

	05-12-2002 22:59									#3
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And that's when you realize... I should have turned off diplo victory at the beginning.

	05-12-2002 23:21									#4
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Sounds familiar...

	05-12-2002 23:52									#5
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If you do not turn it off, and I do, you must build the UN to prevent any unpleasant votes. It is easy to over look it.

	06-12-2002 01:09									#6
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It is a very sudden and very sad way to loose

	06-12-2002 02:15									#7
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX thats why i turn off the pansie-classed victories. no one gets elected, no one leaves the planet, no one has "sufficient" temples. it's all or nothing

But if you turn them off, you take some of the challenge from the game. I'm convinced that the AI doesn't "know" that certain victory conditions are turned off and that therefore it should alter its play strategy to optimize for only a military victory -- as the human player can.

Why not leave the conditions on, but resolve to yourself to win only by conquest or domination? You still won't win via a "pansie-classed" victory method, but you will be forced to take into account other possible AI win methods and accomodate your own play tactics and strategy accordingly (as the AI is forced to do since, again, it doesn't "know" that a cultural or UN win is impossible).

@HMFIC - very painful. Gotta keep your eye on the tech lead and Fission very carefully.

Catt

	06-12-2002 02:20									#8
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I like the "pansie-classed" victories, except for diplo. Untill Civ gets a SMAC-style council (which will probably never happen) I will not turn it on.

	06-12-2002 04:22									#9
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I usually play like a thug for Emperor+ level games. You can imagine how much other civs hate me. I once built the UN and hold an election, and got a crushing defeat. Needless to say, I reloaded and procedeed to slaughter every other Civs on the planet.

Lesson: always build the UN if you don't want the AI to snatch victory from jaws of defeat.

	06-12-2002 05:23									#10
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"pansie-classed" cracks me up...

I usually only win by conquest or spaceship. I turn off domination and cultural, just because I don't really like them (if I'm dominating, I'd rather just crush the rest of the enemy out), and cultural victories are too anticlimactic. I sometimes leave diplomatic on, but I make sure to build the UN myself if I do, and I NEVER hold elections.

	06-12-2002 05:29									#11
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Diplo Victory is my favorite victory. Except I play 16 Civ maps (usually on tiny maps, lots of fun) and by the time the vote comes I'd be lucky to have 8 Civs left. 1-2 Civs go down in BC and then one more goes down every 200-300 years. It's probably because it's on a tiny map. But I would love to have a 16 Civ UN vote.

The best one I had so far was 5 Civs. I was 3rd largest (I limited my size because I find it to be more fun) with the Persians the largest on my island. Then the Romans had their own island and where second largest. There were 2 other small Civs. I built UN and Persia and Rome both had 1/4 pop/land so it was a three way vote. Each of the big 3 voted for themselves and you needed 3 votes to win (even if I eliminated a minor Civ it would still be 3 votes, which would become almost impossible to get). Essentially one of the three Civs had to get both of the small Civs to vote for them.

The fate of the world rested on the 2 tiniest nations.

	06-12-2002 06:13									#12
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You could have had one or more of the two small nations abstain...

Either way, it makes for an interesting vote, but I'm not really playing Civ for the politics, and, if I were, I'd suggest that it blows chunks as a political simulation.

	06-12-2002 07:35									#13
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quote: Originally posted by FNBrown You could have had one or more of the two small nations abstain... Either way, it makes for an interesting vote, but I'm not really playing Civ for the politics, and, if I were, I'd suggest that it blows chunks as a political simulation.

Good point. But my view is that by turning off certain victory conditions, you run the risk of further handicapping the AI against the human. If I know that diplo victory is turned off, my reputation means a lot less to me -- I am free to break deals whenever it suits my purpose. With diplo victory on, I have to (1) take some precautions about my own reputation; or (2) be d*mn sure I build the UN. Either choice forces additional constraints on my freedom of action -- I can still act in any manner I choose, but consequences, potentially serious consequences, may follow. Without the threat of an AI diplo victory, potential consequences are greatly lessened (and therefore certain of my tactical choices carry less importance).

In any event - this is definitely a "to each his own" sort of issue. Each player should defintiely do what turns his own crank.

Catt

	06-12-2002 09:05									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Catt But if you turn them off, you take some of the challenge from the game. I'm convinced that the AI doesn't "know" that certain victory conditions are turned off and that therefore it should alter its play strategy to optimize for only a military victory -- as the human player can. Why not leave the conditions on, but resolve to yourself to win only by conquest or domination? You still won't win via a "pansie-classed" victory method, but you will be forced to take into account other possible AI win methods and accomodate your own play tactics and strategy accordingly (as the AI is forced to do since, again, it doesn't "know" that a cultural or UN win is impossible).

in my expierence the AI is much more aggressive when the peaceful victories are off. Korea declared war on me on turn 6 of the game.

	06-12-2002 10:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX in my expierence the AI is much more aggressive when the peaceful victories are off.

Really? I hadn't seen a correlation before, but there certainly could be one.

quote: Korea declared war on me on turn 6 of the game.

But this happens with all victory conditions on too! I've had the Aztecs get my capitol before my first warrior is produced, and I've had numerous "peaceful" civs (read: low aggressiveness ratings) declare war ultra-early -- usually at the higher levels when the AI starts with a significant unit advantage and when our start positions are very close. I've suspected that the relative power rankings that early in the game almost command the AI to attack on early contact (but that's just speculation on my part).

Catt

	06-12-2002 10:05									#16
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I doubt turning off UN makes much impact on the way the AI plays. I would thing that have some sort of check for it and build the wonder if it is in the game and skip if not and it is way to late to alter the game choices. I mean the land will begone by then.

	06-12-2002 11:14									#17
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I have only spaceship and conquer on...


My successful game always end up when enemy civ reaches the point of almost launching spaceship. This will be long after my dominance ove rthe planet and i have sufficient ICBM/nukes all the cities. We're talkling very small civ per player so its not that hard (I rarely finish off a civ, i let them at least keep 2 cities.) I just nuke all the civ before theyre about to win and start a new game.

	06-12-2002 12:53									#18
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diplomatic victory sucks

'nuff said

	06-12-2002 14:05									#19
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There's only one victory that's kewl, which is the total destruction version!
And that's just because you can't go on anyway.

Any other thing that ends your game sucks.

	06-12-2002 18:48									#20
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I like the other victory options, but I agree that diplo and cultural victories suck big time. But this is because they were poor implemented in the game... with a proper implementation, they could be as fun as the other types... (duh!)

	06-12-2002 20:20									#21
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I've gone 180 on the diplomatic victory. I it!

It's the quick victory. It can save you a couple hours working on SS or domination. By this time you usually know you've won the game, and it's time to start the next one.

Even if you don't want to go for it you should leave it enabled. You are taking too much of the challenge and decision making out of the game without it. The most exciting SS victories I've had happened when the AI had the UN. Preventing 2 types of victories is harder than preventing just 1.

	06-12-2002 20:46									#22
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good point, JJ.

	07-12-2002 10:43									#23
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I'm one of many playing AU 202 (posted in the Strategy Forum -- be sure to go to the game thread rather than the spoiler thread if you want to play unspoiled!). All victory conditions enabled.

My fate, pathetic as it was, reminded me of this thread. I exited early on my first try, when Bismarck rushed me at turn 29 (turn 30 for the actual attack). Not all that impressive until you understand that the German start position was 21 tiles from the attack point. That means 21 turns to get there. Which means that Bismarck must have largely avoided straying from a near beeline to my city, and must have gone on the attack at almost the first opportunity. So, I'm still not convinced that the AI is more aggressive if certain victory conditions are turned off. I think other factors are at play.

Catt

	07-12-2002 23:54									#24
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I turned space victory off... I liked the way it was handled in Civ 2, where launching of the ship mattered not, only its being the first one to land on Alpha Centauri...

I liked the possibilities of taking the civ capital to destroy the spaceship, or of building a faster ship to outrun the soon but slow one.

now, it's just, build the last piece, and *poof* you've won... no salt...

	09-12-2002 04:21									#25
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What's fun about having 40 ICBMs and win because of... UN headquarters