 |
| |
|
|
Velociryx
|
 |
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
Recent threads have got me thinking, and when I get thinking about the Candle'Bre project, I get….almost evangelical about it. I am, I guess you could say, a true believer in what we're doing.
If I weren't, I wouldn't be doing it at all.
The current gaming industry is patently insane. There's just no other way to describe it. Design Houses pitch a concept to a publisher before anything gets coded (just TRY that in the book publishing world….it's a beautiful myth that publishers will accept a concept only….never happens. If you're new or midlist, they want the finished goods before they'll even talk to you, and if you’re a best seller, they'll buy your books sight unseen, with no concept OR timeframe to tie you down), they get the money and code like mad, mating rabbits till sometime in October, whereupon they ship it out no matter what to get those Q4 dollars, and worry about stuff like quality and testing and craftsmanship as an afterthought.
And hey…it works.
It works cos we consumers allow it to work.
Never in a million years would we accept an auto company pulling stunts like that. Or the post office, or the phone company, or a clothing retailer, but we suck it up and take it from software vendors cos "that's just the way it is." A company in any other industry would last all of about a week with a mindset like that, but we let 'em slide in the software industry cos that's just the way it is. It's only games, after all. Entertainment. Not crucial, life threatening, world-peace causing (or shattering) stuff.
Just games, so why fuss over it?
And after all, this is one of those "new economy" industries….you know, one of those industries run by hotshots who already know everything and who thumb their noses at the rules and conventions of older, more established (old economy) industries.
No lessons to be learned there! Bah! This is the new economy, baby!
Yeah.
And somewhere along the way in the birthing process of this particular new economy industry, stuff like customer care, quality, and craftsmanship got left out of the equation.
Not necessary in the new economy, baby! We can sell $hit and fix it later…if we want to….if we feel like it…heck, it's just games, and the public will buy most anything!
And we let them get away with it.
We watch the industry devour its own in gleeful, cannibalistic style (Ed Beaver? Richard Garrott? A whole host of others….the new economy don't need 'em, baby! We're l337! We rulez allz).
So wouldn't it be inspiring if something different happened? If someone or some group of someones….kina old school….kina old style came along and started putting stuff like goodwill toward the gaming community first, and made things like craftsmanship and quality the number one priority, placing more importance in things like that than in cranking out the latest round of slop for the Christmas selling season?
Welcome to the world of Velocigames.
See…we're not in business to chase the almighty dollar. We're not looking to milk you for every dime we can. That's not what it's about.
We're about making cool, outstanding, exquisitely crafted games, and turning the PROCESS of making those games into a community endeavor. This is not some cloistered bunch of guys deciding arbitrarily what you think will be cool…this is kicking ideas around in a "community jam session" setting, and then turning the synthesis of those ideas into reality.
No NDA's (what the h*ll would be the point in that??? we do the bulk of our development in full view of everyone….besides, I believe in giving, not taking….you want a multi-million dollar idea? E-mail me, I'll give you several….pick one you like and run with it….free of charge, and with my blessings! Ideas are cheap….execution is everything), no "oh, I'm sorry, we just can't talk about that right now." No half truths or hidden agendas….just great games and building a community of gamers.
Now….lots of folks who know lots of stuff would say that "this is no way to run a company, Chris! You can't survive like that, not in today's business world!"
*G* We'll see about that.
I think that because we represent something so refreshingly different (a responsive game company that CARES about it's product? That CARES about stuff like craftsmanship and quality? That's not out to make that dollar, charging for each and every little thing and boxing it up for Christmas no matter what? That thumbs its nose at the entire publishing world?--Sorry Infogrames…but the day you publish ANYTHING we produce will be the day I own the company, and I assure you that should that day come, things will be verrrrry different 'round there).
An illustrative example, just for kicks. Did you know that I have spent two solid weeks looking at the "Dirt of Candle'Bre?" No, really….I'm making the terrain tiles for the game, and, like pretty much everything else about the game, we're taking a non-standard approach, and yes…I have quite literally spent two solid weeks looking at my ground tiles, tweaking down at the pixel level to get the shading and texturing just right.
Attention to detail, so that what we give you will be as good as we are capable of delivering.
Here's another one…..we're writing the entire 200 year history for the kingdom, even though it has NOTHING to do with the game itself.
Yep….me, Cyclotron7, and Kalle so far, but anybody is free to contribute a verse.
Why? For no other reason than the fact that it adds an enormous amount of depth and texture to the game. We want you to feel like you are a part of Candle'Bre when you play it, not simply a passive observer.
And one more for good measure.
Another of our members (Frustrated Poet) invented a wholly unique game to be the biggest pastime in Candle'Bre. A complete, working game within a game.
Why?
Attention to detail.
And that kind of attention is going into each and every piece of the game we're putting together. As a community.
When will it be released?
Not a moment before it's ready. Sorry, but we absolutely REFUSE to deliver anything less than the best game we can make. If that means that you have to wait, then it means you have to wait. Better that though, than to release a product we're not proud of.
And…because this is our first try, we may or may not be on target with the release date (it's still lookin' pretty good for the initial beta release tho, but that's not a guarantee!).
We want to make as many people a part of the process as we can, too….and in this way, we'll ensure that we don't miss anything.
So….before the game is 100% ready (the open beta), we'll be giving it away. Imagine that….we'll not be charging you (taking) to be our beta testers, we'll be freely offering (giving) our work in progress in exchange for your thoughts on it. Just to make sure that we haven't left anything off.
Even if our detractors are ultimately right (and I do not believe that they are), even if we eventually implode and cease to be….while we are here, we will make the big dawgs stand up and take notice before we go.
Yeah….we're not on the rest of the industry's radar screens yet, but we're coming….that's a promise, and maybe even a bit of a threat.
You can pretend you don't see us all you want. You can deny the new kind of thinking we're bringing to the equation, but the simple truth is….we're coming.
We're coming.
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
ravagon
|
|
Australia
Sep 1999
time: 13:24
|
|
Hear hear to about 90% of that. 
Now I don't really want to be a GP here (I really hope he reads that btw  ) but a few of those points are just a wee bit harsh on the current industry.
The NDA's, if I understand correctly, are primarily to prevent conflicts between publishers and developers - largely due to one of these making promises the other can't deliver, hence generating bad PR. Obviously Candle'bre doesn't have this problem to the same extent but I'd hazard a guess that you will at least have to have some rather intense discussions before making announcements in the post-product phase.
Take paradox as an example - Initial release has historically been pretty buggy and for the next 6 months or so thir people are happily churning out patch after patch after patch, working towards making their product as near-perfect as they can. Good attitude. Re: the latter part in any case.
The contents of such patches are subject to intense scrutiny before release and, should rumours arising regarding said contents not prove accurate ... ---> A fair number of dissatisfied fans.
What? No bugs in Candle'bre?  ..  .. 
Well and good, but as well as bug-fixing, patches can also add in gameplay tweaks and balances. Such that become apparent only through the large scale feedback of an actual release rather than the feedback of significantly fewer beta-testers.
Then there's the platform support to boot. With so many different systems out there at present its a near-certainty that some systems will need some kind of added support due to problems arising after the fact.
[Note here however, that any prior-release platform testing whatsoever will be a big jump up on a certain software producer whose name might rhyme with Activision.   ].
Patches aren't all bad and I think it might be a mistake to try and perfect absolutely everything before throwing it open to the public.
In short Vel, change the way your portion of the software industry pie does things by all means, but baby steps, baby steps ...
[And throw in some little parable about rushing in where angels don't tread or something. - See that SFB scenario about a Fed CA running into far too many Klingons. ]
PS: A big to the dirt. ... well, it'll stop my army falling through to the back of my monitor anyway.
Last edited by ravagon on 09-12-2002 at 11:04
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
Well said, Rav! And yes.....it is a bit of an oversimplification, cos there are some really fantastic companies out there that do great work. SMAC, old as it is, still stands out in my mind as being one of the best games ever. EU....absolutely fantastic (even if it is kinna draggy in places).....HOMM3...to my knowledge, there was never even a patch for the game (and if there was, I didn't miss it...it played perfectly out of the box)....and because of that, I wound up buying all of it's expansions....good stuff! Can't tell you how many weeks of my life were lost to that game!
But for every bright spot, there are at least a dozen shadows. Not that I mind that....given the current state of the industry, I think it'll make us all the easier to spot!
With CB, my plan for us is to release it in as near-perfect condition as we can, and then, the time that the other guys spend fixing what's obviously wrong, we'll spend making expansions and game-enhancers....
And GREAT reference...the SFB thing! I remember playing that scenario!
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
I'd love to get rid of about half the hats I'm currently wearing, actually! Ahhh, but that is the nature of the beast....since we're doing this on an entirely voluntary basis, there's no telling what people, with what skill sets we'll have at any given point, and then of course, there's the "real life factor." So...if something starts to fall behind, I do what I can to learn it, and bring that element back up to speed.
In the case of the graphics....that's a subject I knew *nothing* about going in....my only hope is that I'm able to do it justice, or barring that, find a volunteer with LOTS of free time....
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
Not to worry, there's nobody on the team who has ever done anything like this, far as I know, so we're not exactly brimming with experience.
On the other hand, since we don't really know what doesn't work, we're not afraid to experiment, which may work to our advantage.
So...if you've got some time to kill/volunteer, and are looking for a way to help out, I invite you to the pyromaniak's site (the "other home" of Candle'Bre) to scope out some of the fiction we've been cooking up there.
We've still got a long ways to go re: putting the entire history of the kingdom together, but it seems to me that a good researcher would be a natural fit for our CB History group....if you've got time, I got ways to fill it up....lol
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
TCO
|
 |
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
An illustrative example, just for kicks. Did you know that I have spent two solid weeks looking at the "Dirt of Candle'Bre?" No, really….I'm making the terrain tiles for the game, and, like pretty much everything else about the game, we're taking a non-standard approach, and yes…I have quite literally spent two solid weeks looking at my ground tiles, tweaking down at the pixel level to get the shading and texturing just right.
Attention to detail, so that what we give you will be as good as we are capable of delivering.
Here's another one…..we're writing the entire 200 year history for the kingdom, even though it has NOTHING to do with the game itself.
Why? For no other reason than the fact that it adds an enormous amount of depth and texture to the game. We want you to feel like you are a part of Candle'Bre when you play it, not simply a passive observer.
And one more for good measure.
Another of our members (Frustrated Poet) invented a wholly unique game to be the biggest pastime in Candle'Bre. A complete, working game within a game.
Why?
Attention to detail.
And that kind of attention is going into each and every piece of the game we're putting together. As a community. |
Do you have a project schedule? List of tasks, subtasks, time estimates, linkages, etc. Getting everything right is a nice objective but have you budgetted time effectively?
quote:
When will it be released?
Not a moment before it's ready. Sorry, but we absolutely REFUSE to deliver anything less than the best game we can make. If that means that you have to wait, then it means you have to wait. Better that though, than to release a product we're not proud of.
And…because this is our first try, we may or may not be on target with the release date (it's still lookin' pretty good for the initial beta release tho, but that's not a guarantee!).
|
Do you have a project schedule. How accurate is it? I'm worried that you all are just sort of lumbering along. Spending huge amounts of time on distractions like the game within the game and the hostory when essential pieces like basic graphics are way behind. Remember what happened to Alan, Veli.
The rah-rah **** is fine for keeping the troops pumped up, but you need to concentrate on the big picture of actually finishing the project.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
Excellent points, as always, Master GP!
And you're right....we haven't proved that we can do....well....much of anything yet, however, it's my belief that if you skimp on details like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread, then your chances of producing a fun-to-play game diminish in direct proportion to the number of details you get rid of.
Details are cool.
Without details, you get something like:
"Well, what kind of game is this, anyway?"
"It's a wargame....you know, you fight stuff...kill stuff....move pieces around."
"What time period is it set in?"
::Shrug:: "Don't know....does it really matter? I mean, you still get to move pieces around the board and kill things."
"Yes, but....why? I mean....why are you fighting?"
"Who knows why? Cos that's just what people do...."
An over-simplification, to be sure, but in my mind, the devil really *is* in the details.....and you can feel the difference when you play a game that pays close attention to that kind of thing vs. a game where the story is just sorta tacked on later.
Time-schedules and such: Yes and no....we *have* one, but in a project made up of volunteers, doing stuff in what spare time they have, there's no good way to enforce deadlines, so yep....we do some lumbering along, interspersed with some periods of truly rampant creativity and progress....it all depends on who's got how much free time right now (one of the key differences in the whole volunteer thing vs. if we were all gettin' paid).
So....while we have task lists, linkages and such, they're loosely defined and with no firm timetables attached (we don't say "Okay....so the drop-dead date on implementing feature X is next tuesday" Instead we say...."Okay, everything looks good so far, let's focus our energy on getting feature X put in place.")
And....we're gettin' there.....no worries on that....we're gettin there....
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
I agree with you, especially regarding setting priorities, and less so with exacting scheduling.
Priorities, we've got! And the overriding, single most important priority on the map is game mechanics.
Not to say that graphics aren't important, because I think they are! It's the graphics that tends to keep players coming back for more, and that's the sort of thing that makes a game (any game) stand out vividly in people's minds, but if the stuff that lies beneath all the pretty pictures isn't solid, then the pretty pictures alone will not save the game.
So...yep. It's truer than true that we've not done much with graphics yet.
Partly, that's because our art folks have not had much time to devote to that task, but another, significant part of that is the fact that the bulk of our time and attention has been spent making sure the ship is seaworthy before we apply a coat of paint and polish.
If it won't float, then all the paint and polish in the world won't make it float.
Scheduling....I dunno. That's a thing I'm a bit more apathetic about.
My thinking there is that if we set a firm component schedule and start doling out too-specific deadlines, then we artifically inflate the pressures on the (voluntary) people we've got working on the project.
Inflate the pressure, and you quickly find yourself with a shrinking pool of volunteers (a common problem with Indie, volunteer-based projects). On the other hand, if you don't have a set timetable, then you can't really say with any certainty WHEN a given feature will be implemented, so you trade one problem for another.
The reason I prefer doing it the way we're doing it (setting very few hard targets) is that I don't have to spend much time trying to scare up helpers (again, a common problem in this type of environment). People who try to be harsh task masters, but have no means of enforcing their deadlines (what are they gonna do...threaten virtual chinese water torture?), have a fairly tough time trying to find interested, committed people.
We've got no shortage of that.
Our main problem is that there's no accounting or predicting who (and by extension, what skill sets) will have how much free time, which is why our development sometimes grows in funky ways, but despite that, we're making pretty steady gains.
No, nothing's ready for prime time yet, but ninteen alpha builds later and we're still trucking (and have begun some small measure of outside testing)....I'd call that solid progress!
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
BigRich
|
 |
of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Excellent points, as always, Master GP!
And you're right....we haven't proved that we can do....well....much of anything yet, however, it's my belief that if you skimp on details like the ones mentioned earlier in this thread, then your chances of producing a fun-to-play game diminish in direct proportion to the number of details you get rid of.
Details are cool.
Without details, you get something like:
"Well, what kind of game is this, anyway?"
"It's a wargame....you know, you fight stuff...kill stuff....move pieces around."
"What time period is it set in?"
::Shrug:: "Don't know....does it really matter? I mean, you still get to move pieces around the board and kill things."
"Yes, but....why? I mean....why are you fighting?"
"Who knows why? Cos that's just what people do...."
An over-simplification, to be sure, but in my mind, the devil really *is* in the details.....and you can feel the difference when you play a game that pays close attention to that kind of thing vs. a game where the story is just sorta tacked on later.
*snip*
-=Vel=- |
For what it's worth, I believe that the story is going to be a significant factor in making this game.
Why?
Simply because it's being built from scratch. There is no epic real world historical background (a la Civ), there is no book or movie tie in (obviously ) to set the scene or provide an already known context for the game. So having a good story, is going to make the difference between a slightly abstract strategy game (no matter how technically good it may be), and a strategy game that the player can relate to, immerse him/herself in and come back to.
Hopefully the story is pitched about right. It's a fantasy story for sure, but with a medieval / historical feel, rather than the more Tolkienesque, elves, dwarves and goblins kinda feel. So the game can get away for example, with the use of magic, but avoids too many of the fantasy cliches which might put people off.
just my thoughts anyway,
Rich.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
Well said, Rich! Your post hit upon another reason why the details are so important.
We really *are* building a brand new fantasy world from scratch, and the folk of Candle'Bre, because of their particular history have a very different worldview than other folks. Their entire existence....the very fabric of the Kingdom was founded literally on-the-run. That, and potent magic are the two chief ingredients that made the kingdom.
On the one hand, the magic used to save them 200 years before the game opens solved the immediate problem in dramatic style, dealing a devastating blow to the Horde pursuing them, and allowing them time to rebuild and regroup.
On the other, that same magic can rightly be said to have created a (very large) prison for them. There's noplace else to run. They are, in a real sense, trapped in the prison created by their ancestors.
And it just so happens that some (many....enough to threaten the survival of the Kingdom) of their former enemies are trapped with them.
This "back against the wall" scenario has served as the canvass upon which their entire history is painted, and two hundred solid years of that has got to make a lasting impact on the mindset of the people.
The downside to all this tho, is that, since the world does not exist until we MAKE it exist, we gotta build it one stone, one town, one tree at a time until it is so real to us that we all swear we've visited once or twice.
That's when we'll know it's done.
And there's no shortcuts to be taken in that.
You skimp on any portion when you create a world from the ground up, and it stands out like a glaring hole in the fabric. At that point, it doesn't matter how cool the rest of the world is, or how well put together....the eye is immediately drawn to that gaping hole where the forgotten detail is.
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
moomin
|
 |
Moo Like In Moomin
Jul 2000
time: 05:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigRich
Simply because it's being built from scratch. There is no epic real world historical background (a la Civ), there is no book or movie tie in (obviously ) to set the scene or provide an already known context for the game. So having a good story, is going to make the difference between a slightly abstract strategy game (no matter how technically good it may be), and a strategy game that the player can relate to, immerse him/herself in and come back to.
|
I do not agree. The two strategy games I love the most, and that I've returned to again and again during the years, are MoM and Moo. I'm sure they have some backstory or other, but I've never read them... nor do I care. Grand strategy is all about making your own story, I think, and the best the designers can hope for is to make an inviting canvas.
And come to think of it, the backstory was the fist thing I ever turned off in SMAC. I really think storytelling belongs in other sorts of games, like RPGs or adventures.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Velociryx
|
|
of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
|
|
I think in absolute terms there's certain much more opportunity for story-telling in RPG's, but I would contend that in order to make a rich, compelling world, details are required.
I simply know of no other way to go about it.
Sometimes, the details express themselves in the form of stories or notes, and sometimes they take other forms, but at the end of the day, my thinking is that even if the players do not pay any mind *to* the backstory, it is still of tremendous importance and value because of what it does to the world as a whole....it lends cohesion and realism to the world....if the player's choose not to pay attention to the written words...coolio, but *because* of those written-out details, the world they make their own stories in will be all the richer.
-=Vel=-
|
|
| |
|
|
|
BigRich
|
|
of the Trentan
May 2001
time: 05:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by moomin
I do not agree. The two strategy games I love the most, and that I've returned to again and again during the years, are MoM and Moo. I'm sure they have some backstory or other, but I've never read them... nor do I care. Grand strategy is all about making your own story, I think, and the best the designers can hope for is to make an inviting canvas.
And come to think of it, the backstory was the fist thing I ever turned off in SMAC. I really think storytelling belongs in other sorts of games, like RPGs or adventures. |
Fair points.
Me I really liked the SMAC backstory and making my own story in Civ was always given that extra filip by being able to relate my particular collection of sprites to a historical people. I used to take great delight in building a huge great spacecraft with the Mongols for example - who never got anywhere near this historically (OK so neither has anyone else but you get the point )
And if nothing else, a good background story can help to *make* that inviting canvas. Again using SMAC as an example, there's much more to the background story in my mind than the ingame plot. The Faction backgrounds and leader personalities, the technology tree, the base improvements, the native life (their role in the plot aside). All created from scratch effectively for that game, all working together to give a consistent game world and all contributing to the feel of the game.
Each to their own though and I can see where you're coming from!
cheers,
Rich.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:24.
Apolyton Time is 00:24. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
05-12-2002 23:55
Attachment: 
) i'd be happy to do . Anything to help the Great new Game!!
|
