06-12-2002 17:38									#31
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Shiber, it doesn't matter which tech we are getting, I can't imagine that we start on a wonder without a palace prebuild. So that's a mute point, once we get our first few cities out, we can build all wonders in 1-10 turns if we time the palace right (meaning in many cases delaying it's construction by MM citizens, letting it rebel, etc.)

Other points: As said before, caution with this long term alliance thing. No matter the trust that has been built between our teams, the moment Lux gets their UU, all diplo relations will change. Of course are they interested in getting there fastest, and safest. But if, at that moment, we are close or powerful, Lux will use it's UU to get on top. Finding out how close they are is going to be key to the amount of trust I would like to invest in them. If they are far away, they will be better partners, as we don't hamper ourselves if we don't attack them with our WC (we can't anyway).

DeepO

	06-12-2002 17:52									#32
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quote: (C) If no to 'A' and 'B', then perhaps stating "general location" ie "we are in the western hemisphere", etc.

I'm ok with this(afterall, this was more or less what I meant in the other thread)
But I wouldn't get more specific then this, at least for now.

on a sidenote:

1. I'm pretty suspicious of Lux, they see us as their biggest tread, not really the best basis a partnership.
2. they want to win at all cost.
3. I see them as our biggest tread, so why should we help them?
4.

quote: the moment Lux gets their UU, all diplo relations will change. Of course are they interested in getting there fastest, and safest. But if, at that moment, we are close or powerful, Lux will use it's UU to get on top.

a very valid point

It's quite strange we are allmost willing to trade cities
and whatnot to Lux, and not to the Lego .
Who IMHO seem to be a much better partner to do so.

/typo

	06-12-2002 18:51									#33
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Trading cities? Not if I can help it. What good would it do? The only thing coming from it is that you get a virtual territory map each turn...

It can be done when you trade 2 lux-cities, and get the lux back from trade. But why make it so difficult? Trading tech would be something very trusty, no need to cripple our territory with a traded city. Especially not as it will break our city-planning, and limit the possiblilities of using 12 tiles per city.

It's not that I don't trust Lux here, but why is showing trust to the other to be done at the advantage of all other teams? both we and lux will have less than perfect efficiency with this foreign city within our borders, which can only help the other teams. Without any serious gain (like trading a horse city to a iron city if we have 2 horsies, and they have 2 iron), I wouldn't do it.

DeepO

	06-12-2002 19:55									#34
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I don't like the city swapping thing AT ALL.

I do like the idea of a strong ally and trading partner.

Is giving another team geographical hints about our location not against the rules in any way? If not, then I suppose it's fine.

As for a method of showing goodwill and generating trust, we *could* each agree at some point to swap several workers and add them to our capitols. Thus, at least until we assimilate them, there would be a WW effect if we fight. It's hardly perfect, but I think it is better than swapping cities.

-Arrian

	06-12-2002 20:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian As for a method of showing goodwill and generating trust, we *could* each agree at some point to swap several workers and add them to our capitols. Thus, at least until we assimilate them, there would be a WW effect if we fight. It's hardly perfect, but I think it is better than swapping cities.

Cleaver, although it's something that could hurt both of us a little relative to our other rivals unless/until we reach a point where we have more workers than we really need.

	06-12-2002 20:54									#36
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I agree that it will hamper both sides a bit, but not as much as city swapping, and it can't take place until we have contact and it requires that we're on the same continent.

-Arrian

	06-12-2002 21:08									#37
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City swapping for a small number of turns should not hurt either of us (unless treachery is involved). We lose a couple of turns of production, sure, so that's why we don't give them our best city, just some small Settler-factory. Also, we don't exchange cities during early expansion; as Nathan pointed out, that hurts both of us too much economically. I was thinking to swap during the first "lull" (an undefined concept, but one I'm sure you all know about...). The benefits are that we trade very restricted territory maps (before Mapmaking), and garner trust.


Dominae

	06-12-2002 21:33									#38
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Well, I still don't like it. The worker adding to the capital idea is something far better in my mind, so I would certainly suggest that before swapping cities.

Other things we might consider for building trust is for instance giving or taking a loan (e.g. asking for 6 gpt for 20 turns against 100 gold). Something like that seems better then hampering cities in anyway. Our cities are our primary resource, and have to be well cared for, I'll object to all tinkering with them. (friendly, of course )

DeepO

	07-12-2002 00:13									#39
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Cities are very, very valueable. If a city is a "settler pump" then it must be at least moderately productive, and it is therefore valueable, even if it doesn't have any improvements - losing it for a few turns will be quite harmful, even during a "lull" period. Plus, I don't really see much benifit to the other side. There has got to be a better way to show goodwill.

Alliances are generally born of mutual benifit. Trust & friendship comes over time if the alliance is fruitful for both parties, and people respect the agreements made. I totally understand wanting to get moving on the diplomatic front, but at the same time we just don't have much to offer at this point without really harming ourselves.

-Arrian

	07-12-2002 01:26									#40
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How about worker trading?

We are industrious, Lets trade them a worker (or two over time). I do not know if the Ottomans are industrious, but we can always add them to one of our cities.

Mss

	07-12-2002 01:38									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Cities are very, very valueable. If a city is a "settler pump" then it must be at least moderately productive, and it is therefore valueable, even if it doesn't have any improvements - losing it for a few turns will be quite harmful, even during a "lull" period. Plus, I don't really see much benifit to the other side. There has got to be a better way to show goodwill. Alliances are generally born of mutual benifit. Trust & friendship comes over time if the alliance is fruitful for both parties, and people respect the agreements made. I totally understand wanting to get moving on the diplomatic front, but at the same time we just don't have much to offer at this point without really harming ourselves. -Arrian

Okay. Lets scratch the "city trading" idea. There will be more to come from all of us, I'm sure. I'm encouraged by the debate here, but that doesn't necessarily make us any closer to our objective, which is to determine whether we actually want any alliance this early, whether we want a tech partner, whether we want to be friends with the Luxians.

They seem to want our partnership. Whether this is based on them wanting to side with a potentially stronger opponent, or them wanting to double-cross us and find a way to get us out of the game early is still yet to be seen.

Which is why I suggest the team leaders, foreign minister, and ambassador from both sides meet in a chat room sometime soon in the future so we can figure this whole issue out, i.e. What we want out of a deal like this, what they want, what we're willing to give and not give, etc etc.

I agree that it is better to prepare for every eventuality and to also prepare ourselves for what we suggest at this chat beforehand. Lets try to think of something...but obviously, trading cities is not going to work for us.

Perhaps they have come up with some ideas to please both sides as well? Perhaps not. We shall have to see.

	07-12-2002 03:20									#42
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I believe "meet on neutral ground" is the best scenario. If we are separated by water, we should agree to contact via Galley ASAP. Once we actualyl contact them we can figure out what we want to do. Maybe we'll have a mutual enemy by then (GoW on right next door); maybe we're alone on a big continent. All possible scenarios require different agreements, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.


Dominae

	07-12-2002 03:49									#43
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Check our gathering storm email at softhome.net for the log file of Admiral PJ and I discussing.

Additional News:

Lux Invictan Foreign Minister Admiral PJ begins backtracking his previous statements slightly. He no longer seems as enthusiastic about the alliance deal as the previous day, although I suspect this may have something to do with the rest of his team.

Admiral PJ also quoted Trip as saying that he "questions NYE's motives" in the game, although he also said that he does not 'fear' NYE. This probably has nothing to do with the alliance, but has to do with the goals of the Gathering Storm.

Now, instead of saying they would be delighted and encouraging an alliance, they are now re-stating themselves as "desiring peace" and have declared that the Gathering Storm "must accept the demands of Lux Invicta if the alliance is to be created".

What those demands are, we do not know yet. I'll keep you all informed.

If the LI were a 10 on the enthusiasticmeter yesterday, I would put them at 6 today, to put it in better perspective.

	07-12-2002 04:21									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Gathering Storm "must accept the demands of Lux Invicta if the alliance is to be created".

**** that.

Maybe we should take a step back?

	07-12-2002 04:24									#45
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hmm, I find this strangeley positive.

IMHO it shows (not conclusive) that are not setting us up. At least not in the short term.

	07-12-2002 04:45									#46
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I'm starting to have some second thoughts myself. Depending on who's where on the map and how well various teams do building, Lux Invicta might or might not make sense as our primary tech trading partner. We'd probably be better off waiting to see how things shape up before deciding on an alliance structure.

In regard to NYE's motives, remind Lux Invicta of all the "ringers" from the strategy forum on this team and ask if they really think we'd let some kind of personal agenda on NYE's part dominate our strategy even if he showed signs of having one. They don't have to trust NYE personally. They just have to trust that the collective wisdom of the team will prevail.

Nathan

	07-12-2002 05:40									#47
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Without comment on the alliance (which I'm still cautiously in favor off), but worker trading on a 1 on 1 basis is in their advantage. We are industrious, for us a worker means double the value of theirs. If we trade, the best thing we can do is add it to a city of ours, while they get an extra slave. Either way, by trading workers, we lose more then they...

DeepO

	07-12-2002 05:46									#48
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If I'm remembering right, they're the Ottomans, and I can say with absolute certainty that the Ottomans are also industrious (seeing as they're one of my new favorite civs).

Nathan

	07-12-2002 06:21									#49
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Meshelic, could you query them to elaborate on the 'Admiral PJ also quoted Trip as saying that he "questions NYE's motives" in the game' bit?

I think I know what they are on about. It was members of Lux (Punkbass and PJ mostly) who were having kittens about how the start went. I said some sharpish things in reply to their promoting of Trip as being essential to the start. I believe the worst I said was 'Trip matters squat', or something to that effect. I can check the IRC log later. However, this could be what they are on about.

	07-12-2002 06:25									#50
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Or better first, can you post the conversation here (PM) or the log to me by email (IRC)?

	07-12-2002 06:43									#51
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IMO they're playing games with us to see how we react.
Theres no way there would have suggested an alliance unless they were completely sure they wanted it.
If they are just trying to see whether our main aim in the game is to beat them then we should try our best to convince them otherwise.

opd

	07-12-2002 10:07									#52
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quote: Originally posted by OPD IMO they're playing games with us to see how we react. Theres no way there would have suggested an alliance unless they were completely sure they wanted it. If they are just trying to see whether our main aim in the game is to beat them then we should try our best to convince them otherwise. opd

You could very well be correct in your statement there, OPD. There is the distinct possibility that they may be testing us to see how we react in certain situations.

I am sure the Admiral PJ himself wants to form some sort of bond between our nations, whether it be trade or defense alliance, but unfortunately (and fortunately sometimes), the personal opinions of the Ambassador or Foreign Minister are not always the opinions of the entire team. At least we have someone who we can cooperate with from their team.

Let us decide how to find our mutual locations without giving too much away. It is up to us to decide how much information we give them. They may very well tell another nation where we are, but we may also play that card as well.

Once the above happens, then we should start discussing how we want to improve our relations.

	07-12-2002 10:16									#53
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Meshelic, are we still having that chat with LI?


Dominae

	07-12-2002 10:42									#54
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I am still hoping on it, we'll have to schedule a time.
I'll check with either AdmiralPJ or CalcII...

	07-12-2002 14:16									#55
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Let me know the day and time.

	07-12-2002 15:54									#56
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If I'm remembering right, they're the Ottomans, and I can say with absolute certainty that the Ottomans are also industrious (seeing as they're one of my new favorite civs). Nathan

Oops... sometimes I really need to check what I say

DeepO

	07-12-2002 17:08									#57
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The more I think about this, the more suspicious I get.
Looking at it from their point of view, I would try to
break us.
Hmm, this is not looking good, we need to probe the other teams.

	07-12-2002 17:17									#58
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If I were them and in a devious mood, I would be seriously tempted to ride Egypt's coattails through Egypt's golden age and the middle ages and then use the Ottomans' later golden age to slingshot past. Whether my slingshot maneuver would be geared toward conquering at least a good chunk of Egypt with Sipahi or just toward pulling away economically (possibly conquering a weaker civ or two) would depend on the situation I found myself in when the time comes.

Nathan

	07-12-2002 21:55									#59
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Such an early alliance, when we havn't even scouted around our starting poistion is a big gamble. And this game isn't about gambling, and all we do know is gamble. I think we need to scout around a bit before we talk about actual deals. And first thing will be to exchange rough coordinates of our starting positions, as well as obliging ourselves to make a deal, such as a scientific or resource deal. This will be a gesture of goodwill, IMO (I also like the idea of exchanging worker, but this should be done later to strengthen our relation and build grounds for an alliance should we desire one). This way we give eachother something to look forward to, and also a reason to maintain peace for enough time in which we could probably find each other's cities. I think that we should Meshelic should say to AdmiralPJ that we are looking forward to create a basis for future partnership, however, we feel it is too early to actually negotiate this sort of dea, and some time for scouting is to be allowed for both teams to familiarize themselves with their surroundings.

I think that some method of dividing up the minimap should be used, like Shiber suggested. A 3x3 division is best IMHO, and such coordinates should be exchanged in due time (which is not now- too risky and too early).

	08-12-2002 00:32									#60
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Can I suggest that we hold off on the whole concept of alliances until we have a bit better view of the game?

As an example: Lux has gotten a crap start (a la Aeson's "So Very Cold)... what good would a "preliminary" alliance do us then?