06-12-2002 10:55									#1
	wave your flag Germany Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Germans I think should be more patriotic. They frown upon any type of flag waving, and they made it illegal to sing the verse of the national anthem that says Germany above all, etc. First off, it's not bad to be patriotic. Repeat after me: Being patriotic is not the same as nationalism. Americans are more proud of their country than most other nations, but we don't believe that people from other countries are lower than us (unfortunately we believed this in the past, but that's over now). Besides, Germany has a lot to be proud of. And the banning of that part of the anthem is ridiculous. When it said Germany above all it didn't mean that Germans were better than everyone else. When that was written, Germany was split up into a bunch of small countries, such as Prussia. It meant to put Germany above all those provinces as a whole. The lessons of nationalism were learned during World Wars 1 and 2, and I think it's now a thing of the past.

	06-12-2002 11:04									#2
	Re: wave your flag Germany Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by johncmcleod but we don't believe that people from other countries are lower than us (unfortunately we believed this in the past, but that's over now).

	06-12-2002 11:52									#3
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I don't think Germany's neighbouring countries (mine included) would be to thrilled. There still is that little thing that happened 60 years ago...

	08-12-2002 02:59									#4
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tassadar, I've never met anyone who believes that they are a better person because they're from America. Lemme guess, you're gonna tell me what about Mexicans and blacks. But that's just racism, which is evil of course, but it's different (and worse) than thinking you're better because you're from America. Yes, many Americans think America isthe best country but they believe that Americans are no better than Europeans. Anyone that would believe that would be plain stupid, the majority of Americans are descendants from Europeans.

	08-12-2002 03:08									#5
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Most people I know think Americans are better than everyone else.

And no, I don't think Germany should revive any sense of patriotism or nationalism. Both are scourges of humanity, and we would do well to follow their example.

And a tip o' the hat to Hueij for bringing back a Betty Page avatar!

	08-12-2002 03:13									#6
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it still says deutschland über alles. IIRC they removed the part about how germany streches from the river maas to memel.

	08-12-2002 03:14									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Most people I know think Americans are better than everyone else.

	08-12-2002 03:15									#8
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I agree. Sometimes Germans overdo with their care not to be accused of nationalism. Saying: "I am proud to be German" is treated as something very very very bad I heard,
while it seems pretty innocent - and it should be like that.
Treating patriotism as nationalism is dangerous.

	08-12-2002 03:16									#9
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quote: Being patriotic is not the same as nationalism.

nothing wrong in being a bit nationalistic either if you ask me. just don't overdo it

	08-12-2002 03:39									#10
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No no no.. this is just a play beautifully done by Mr. Bush. He makes you think other people won't appreciate and love their countries! CIA is in on it too.. I have to applaud the outcome, it's perfect.

How can you say Americans love their country more than other people? How do you know this? .
I'm sure they do... but I wouldn't say others don't so much..

You see... There are American ways of doing things. For example the flag waving and all that. I can't understand why everyone applauds and goes nuts everytime Bush says something.. I mean what's with that? Can't you just shut up and sit and listen until the man is done?!
But seriously I know it's American way.. nothing wrong with that. We come from different places, for example we do it differently. We shut up in sit. We think flag waving and all that would show lack of respect.
I guess we appreciate minimalistic styles or something, and it's pretty much the opposite of American way. But we know this of course and won't hold it against you .

But if you were here and doing the same thing with our flags and stuff, we would see you as people who won't respect the flag and country and so on. Also if we were there doing our way, you'd think 'wow these guys just don't give a ****' . Just different way of doing things, it's pretty much mental.
But don't worry, I'm sure there are many countries that won't appreciate their country as much as Americans do.

	08-12-2002 03:40									#11
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Uncle Joe as Santa Claus

I agree that patriotism is not the same as nationalism and that there would be nothing wrong for the Germans to feel some pride in what the Bundesrepublik has done and what it stands for today. Just no nightime torchlight rallies

	08-12-2002 03:44									#12
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Do you hang little flags on your christmas trees

	08-12-2002 03:45									#13
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Hell no!

	08-12-2002 03:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf it still says deutschland über alles. IIRC they removed the part about how germany streches from the river maas to memel.

Nope, the entire first and second verses, the first of which said, deutschland über alles, are stricken. It now officially is:

3. Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Für das deutsche Vaterland!
Danach laßt uns alle streben
Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Sind des Glückes Unterpfand.
|: Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
Blühe, deutsches Vaterland. :|

Which is:

3. Unity and right and freedom
For the German Fatherland;
Let us all strive to this goal
Brotherly, with heart and hand.
Unity and rights and freedom
Are the pledge of fortune grand.
Prosper in this fortune's glory,
Prosper German fatherland.

There is an unofficial 4th verse which does have the offending line, but it is not sung. Only the above verse is official.

I happen to find the sentiments of the above verse to be quite noble, and more than enough to be a national anthem.

Still, I agree that Germans can afford to be more patriotic. Perhaps moreso than any other country, they have learned the lesson of ultra-nationalism and can express pride without arrogance. It is a shame to see young Germans reticent to express pride in their national achievements because they are afraid of the association with Nazism. Considering the length and richness of German history and culture, that's very unfair.

	08-12-2002 03:48									#15
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It's against the rules to put your flag if it's not a day (like independece day) it's supposed to be in display. People are very strict about it. You won't see flags anywhere here, except in sport events where you show respect for the flag and paint it in your butt.

edit: You must live here to understand the severity of not waving flags and stuff. Every country has their rules about flags in certain situations like it must not touch the ground etc.. You can imagine my horror when I was (i don't know how you say it) the man in charge of things in my unit.. would you say duty officer? Anyway the commander was coming in so everybody was on their toes and crapping pants and I was taking care of preperations.. and about 10 minutes before he was supposed to be there, I noticed I have lost the flag! I had attached it in the wrong way and wind had taken it. So it was in the ground, somewhere in the compound.. Time for panic and horror as I ran all over looking for it and ready to be beaten to death by rifle. I found it just before he came and everything went smoothly.. Phew!
I mean I was breaking Olympic Records when I ran.

Last edited by Pekka on 08-12-2002 at 03:55

	08-12-2002 03:49									#16
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I love my country, but I have to say I lived in Middlesex, England for three years and I would love to go back there. The Brits keep thier country very clean.

	08-12-2002 03:58									#17
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Is that us he's talking about?

	08-12-2002 04:01									#18
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Hmm, i was in Germany last monday-wednesday, in Wurzburg (which is a prosperous city near Munich, in Bayern, a conservative right area where much of the nazis where hanging around if i recall correctly) and even there the whole thing is still printed in their minds... I talked to a guy about politics and even then they oppose everything related to nationalism... the nazi disaster is always in their minds, and they don't want it to happen again (i encourage this btw)

that doesn't mean that there aren't rightwing ppl in there but still... left is quite popular there (opposed to the success of the right parties, and liberals everywhere else in Europe).

you see the same thing everywhere, in art as well for example: a certain painting style is usually a reaction against another previous style etc etc, same thing here, In a while Germany will go all right again, i'm sure

	08-12-2002 04:03									#19
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Boris, you're right. For some reason I thought that the title of the anthem was Deutschland über alles.

	08-12-2002 04:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Hell no!

really?
we do in norway. and I know fro a fact that they do it in sweden too (flags on the christmas tree).

	08-12-2002 04:11									#21
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Patriotism is the exact same thing as nationalism. It just sounds less like 'nazism'.

	08-12-2002 04:12									#22
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Well maybe some do, but it's not a custom in here.. What's up with that! FLAG WAIVERS! You .. will.. all.. die.. without.. respect!

	08-12-2002 04:17									#23
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you must really hate your country

	08-12-2002 04:19									#24
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No.. we just don't like to ruin it by over doing it like the rest of you .

	08-12-2002 04:22									#25
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it's not overdoing, it's tradition.

I wonder if they do it in germany

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	08-12-2002 04:38									#26
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"Patriotism is the exact same thing as nationalism."

I've seen nationalism--a couple of weeks right before Gulf War I in the US. About a month of it. Nationalism crushes dissent.

Personally, I haven't seen the reoccurence of this, even in the past year. I have seen a lot of healthy patriotism and flag-waving in the last 10 years in the US, though.

	08-12-2002 05:03									#27
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Patriotism and nationalism are NOT the same thing: too bad that the english language has no nice word for "Patria". The best is Fatherland.

Patriotism is feeling pride about your fatherland, while nationalism is pride in your nation. These are no the same things, as fatherland refers only to the state to which you belong, without needing to be of a specific ehtno-cultural group, which is a nation.

So, a patirotic man would feel pride and commradeship with all their fellow citizens, regardless of race or creed,as long as race or creed was not central to one being able to be a citizen (which requires nationalism).

	08-12-2002 05:48									#28
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Type 'Patriotic Front' into Google for some 'healthy' patriotic websites.

quote: Patriotism is feeling pride about your fatherland, while nationalism is pride in your nation. These are no the same things, as fatherland refers only to the state to which you belong, without needing to be of a specific ehtno-cultural group, which is a nation.

Fatherland is just a sentimental euphemism for nation. Whether that nation is expressed in the form of a state is another matter. Sometimes nations form out of states, other times states form out of nations.

quote: So, a patirotic man would feel pride and commradeship with all their fellow citizens, regardless of race or creed,as long as race or creed was not central to one being able to be a citizen (which requires nationalism).

I think that you are distinguishing between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism here. Ethnic nationalism is based on ethnicity, civic nationalism is based on certain ideals. However, the two are not usually clear-cut.

	08-12-2002 05:52									#29
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Google searches do not a point make.

The notion of Patria is much older than that of nation. There is a minor kernel of it inside, but as you youself said, it ususally comes to mean respect for ones way of life, without the blood meaning of nation. The Romans were intensely patriotic though hardly nationalistic (otherwise they would not have been so geenrous with citizenship).

	08-12-2002 05:54									#30
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I believe that's a reasonable summary, at least sans the value judgements. Unfortunately, patriotism tends to bring two things with it that are not so pleasant.

Firstly, a lot of people tend to misinterpret their duties as citizens and believe that a true patriot follows the order of the state even if they feel they are morally wrong. In fact, patriotism as a concept often carries these kinds of connotations.

Secondly, patriotism is often used to suppress other cultural groups than the main one in a country, which is elevated into some sort of common heritage that many people may not share. Rather than promoting ethnic diversity for its own sake, people who use this argument fallaciously claim to have invented some sort of universial culture that more often than not happens to be that of the dominant ethnic group.

In both these cases nationalism can be supremely useful, coupled with the activist spirit on which a republic is built. In the first case, people can ignore the command of the state and instead do what they believe is the best thing for their ethnic group. In the second case nationalism can help preserve the unique and important aspects of ones own culture and help promote them on a national level.