07-12-2002 12:00									#1
	Is it worth switching to democracy? Support Apolyton

I know how democracy is different from republic: less corruption, more efficient workers, more war weariness. I like it as a gov't because I'm a builder; those 1st two traits arer great, and war weariness doesn't worry me since I try to avoid wars. But here's the question:

If I'm already in republic, and I'm not a religious civ, are the advantages gained by switching to democracy worth spending all those turns in anarchy? My initial thought would be "yes, as long as it's early enough in the game and you're not racing for a wonder." I'm wondering what others think, and what the basis forr your calculation is. TIA

	07-12-2002 13:19									#2
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As a non religous civ, I can not see any point in making more than one switch in the game. Despot to Republic is my choice, but you could do Monarch. I do not even research Demo. I will get it later. The lost of all that production is hard to make up and you do not need the boost from Demo at that point.

	07-12-2002 16:48									#3
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Yes thats true the loss in production is a sting, and rarely in a game is there an ideal time to change over. Always some problem to deal with of one kind or another. That said though there is no doubt that once you have got it the advantages are for all to see.

I suppose the best time to change is if you have a sizable tech lead of at least four or five and can afford to let the AI catch up a little. Also selling some tech beforehand can bring in extra revenues whilst this process takes place.

So I suppose in a round about way I agree with vmxa1.

EDIT The best way to aqquire Democracy is to demand it during peace negotiations while you concentrate on researching the best miliatary tech.

Last edited by ChrisiusMaximus on 07-12-2002 at 16:56

	07-12-2002 16:56									#4
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It's not even worth it, as a religious civ IMO.
If war breaks out, you'r allmost guaranteed to have to switch back to republic or monarchy.

	07-12-2002 21:28									#5
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I tried Democracy. Once.

	07-12-2002 21:32									#6
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Yes. If your planning for an as peaceful as possible AC or diplo victory then as soon as possible.
I find that wars can easily be fought in democracy if you have enough luxuries. If you have 5 luxuries or can afford to buy them, I would switch to democracy even if I were aiming for a military victory.
The optimal time is when you are just about to get a tech lead. You can easily buy back an 8 turn tech lag.

	07-12-2002 22:45									#7
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I usually switch to Democracy, but now I am turning to the dark side of warfare and find Demo less important on every game.

	07-12-2002 23:24									#8
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I would say that if I was to switch, it would be because I am behind and need the boost to catch up. If I already have a 4-5 tech lead, why do I need to bother with a switch? The game is a lock anyway. I guess if you want to jack up your score in dominate/conquest game. Maybe just to see what it is like, as a test or for fun, but not for a strategic reason.

	08-12-2002 09:00									#9
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To me the choice is largely one that relates to map size more than anything else. On standard sized maps or smaller, a change to demo can actually hurt rather than help because you simply do not see much of the corruption reducing aspects of demo. Also on standard or smaller maps, fast workers are not really needed. On a large map you begin to see some of the benefits that a democracy can bring a civ, but only on the huge maps does Democracy really shine as the best government in the game.

	08-12-2002 14:57									#10
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Given the high war weariness experienced by Democracy, I would say that a non-Religious Civ should not bother with using it unless you have the Universal Suffrage wonder, or at least Police Stations. Once you have this, the main disadvantage that Democracy has over Republic is reduced significantly.

	09-12-2002 00:36									#11
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I usually keep my govt on Monarchy while my democratic opponents lose all their production in anarchy

	09-12-2002 00:43									#12
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I really don't mind Democracy. I'm a builder, and don't usualy don't make the first strike (Unless it's in the interest of Rome to do so).

Sure the switch is somewhat painfull, but since I do tend to have a rather large defensive army (about 4 defensive units per city, 1 of each is patroling the boarders), I don't need to worry a whole lot about being backstabbed.

	09-12-2002 00:55									#13
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even losing those 4-7 turns on anarchy is mostly worth it to me, except for a wonder-race or short before a war.
a) less corruption makes production and commerce in powerhouses further away of the capital/FP much higher. you might need 100 turns to catch up for the losses, but then the next 250 turns it's worth it... at least as a builder or someone who likes short well prepared wars (cavalry and MA-wars (3 moves) on normal world sizes last 3-6 moves, enough time...)

	09-12-2002 15:48									#14
	Support Apolyton

Thanks for all the input. Looks like this will be the first game in which I don't switch to democracy; I'll see how I like it. Thanks again!

	09-12-2002 20:48									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Thanks for all the input. Looks like this will be the first game in which I don't switch to democracy; I'll see how I like it. Thanks again!

Hrm I guess I have a really weird playing style. I warmonger all the time, but I can't remember the last time I didn't have a Democracy when I could. Of course I always build Univ. Suffrage, Police Stations, and Courthouses. But the improvement in one's economy/income from Republic to Democracy is definitely noticeable.

	10-12-2002 08:49									#16
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Of course WW is a problem with democracy, but don't forget that workers work faster under democracy. If it's hard for me not to be industrialist since I love fast workers, imagine what I believe about democracy.

	10-12-2002 14:04									#17
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Democracy is well worth the effort. I always swicth, then use the increased income/production to quickly build Universal Suffrage, police stations, cathedrals etc., then build/upgrade my army. I then go to war with my neighbours, one by one. If it escalates to world war, I switch to war-time mobilization. By the time my people become unhappy, I can conclude the war(s) with a lot of profit.

	10-12-2002 16:04									#18
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I play at Monarch, and find getting into Democracy hard but necessary to have any chance of a tech lead. My last two games were as Commercial, so perhaps that gets extra benefit from democracy.

Getting into demo is difficult - the GL expires several techs before hand, and you have Navigation, Physics, Magnetism, Theory of Evo etc all around, with al those wonders, Economics and Banking too. Usually I'm racing for at least one of these, and trying to get Dem first too, so it does require a sacrifice. But it is worth getting, for a builder

	10-12-2002 16:44									#19
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The only advantage of democracy is the faster workers. It was better in previous Civ generations, where it was more or less corruption free. I rarely use it, unless I play a religious but non-industrious tribe and feel that my railroad network is growing too slowly.

	10-12-2002 17:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Fergus Horkan I play at Monarch, and find getting into Democracy hard but necessary to have any chance of a tech lead. My last two games were as Commercial, so perhaps that gets extra benefit from democracy. Getting into demo is difficult - the GL expires several techs before hand, and you have Navigation, Physics, Magnetism, Theory of Evo etc all around, with al those wonders, Economics and Banking too. Usually I'm racing for at least one of these, and trying to get Dem first too, so it does require a sacrifice. But it is worth getting, for a builder

Yeah, this is what I was struggling with. I was going to go Demo after I completed Bach's cathedral, but by that time I was racing to complete Smith's; when Smith's was done, I was racing to complete Newton's, and Newton's then thrust me into a Golden Age. The GA just finished, but it's 1600 and I'm about to get Theory of Evolution (and am thus very close to getting Electronics and racing for Hoover). The window just wasn't there.

	10-12-2002 17:47									#21
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I guess our more warlike colleagues would say we should make sure we are fighting during this period - to generate Great Leaders and solve the wonder problem that way.

In my current game as the English, I got the Library, and then maxxed my cash and went straight for Demo. I was able to buy the other techs, but the only wonder I got was Darwin (might be wrong) but I did not get Magellan, Sun Tzu, Adam Smith, JS BAch, Sistine etc

HOwever, I got such a big tech lead in the industrial age that I am whupping ass and miles ahead - I am now in Modern Age, wiped out biggest rival and have 4-5 science lead.

So Demo can work well, but as ever is not the only answer.

	10-12-2002 18:56									#22
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I too have found Republic to be adequate in vanilla civ. But I don't play vanilla anymore.... with my modded version either Democracy or Communism are more attractive in the late game, though it is possible to stick with Republic or Monarchy and still win.