08-12-2002 00:18									#1
	Let Down Again Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Several websites are not posting the release is beying delayed to 1/16/03 in USA.

From August...to November...to December...to January.

Back to Dark Age of Camelot.

	08-12-2002 09:54									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Links.

	08-12-2002 09:58									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

People complain when a game is released too quick and is a bug hive.
Now people complain that a company wants to start out publishing a refined product even before it releases the first patch...as taking too long.

Some people just want to complain for the sake of complaining, I think.

	08-12-2002 11:21									#4
	Put an end to popups!

I really really wish people would stop whining about a game being delayed. Especially when it is clear that it is to make the game as stable and as bugfree as possible.

These retards whining right now that the date keeps getting pushed back are the same retards that will be flaming and demanding patches had the game been released sooner is a less polished state.

I used to slam companies for releasing shoddy products, but I mean, WTF? its lose lose for them. Release the game buggy, they get crapped on, release the game late to fix ****, they get crapped on.

Give it a rest already.

I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather they keep me waiting now when I HAVEN'T SPENT A DIME rather than release it, have me plunk down money for it and then sit there and wait for a freakin patch.

	08-12-2002 12:34									#5
	Got spare money?

The only january date ive seen so far is ebworld.com's, and well Ive already posted the email I got from eb about my pre-order status back when it was moved from dec 4th to the 17th on their site, and they flat out said the publisher told them nothing and its their best guess.

This is very likely no different, all the january dates now mean is that the publishers have either decided they can't/won't make it by whatever date they had listed (the 17th of dec for eb) based on either a guess or their knowledge of how long it takes to go from gold to their stores, or just a flat out guess. Or dec 17th (and christmas in particular) is getting too close to be comfortable to them to have listed as the "date" when it was just a guess to start with.

So all they are really saying "We don't think its going to come out between now and what we had listed before, but we definately feel safe with saying it'll make it before january 16th" (which happens to be their old guess + a month).

Which is a safe assumption if you think about it. Im not even in the business and just based on the "very soon" on the official website, id guess anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks from now as a street date depending on if very soon means gold Monday or if it means gold within 2 weeks

	08-12-2002 13:43									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

This is a standard CYA ploy in the industry. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.

A company is coming up to x-mas. There will be people ordering presents for their loved ones, who are counting on those things being delivered by a set time. If that company cannot absolutely guarantee that those products will be out, they should likely tell the customer that they won't likely be out, and err on the side of post-xmas. That way they'll keep their customers happy, in theory.

Basically, Moo3 has missed the xmas window for all but the most dedicated. Not that it'll matter all that much; I doubt very seriously that it'll dent overall sales by a significant factor, though it might eat into early sales a bit.

	08-12-2002 14:51									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Come on, can you tell me you this actually caught you off guard?

This game has been delayed many many times. I personally no longer pay attention. Its hard at first, I know, but oh well. Its probably better that I don't have it, as I still need to finish programming my minix shell and serial port control system for one of my comp sci classes, and finish building my apache for my opengl class. :-)

Not to mention finals.

Moo3 will be out when its out, and I won't believe its been released until I'm playing it.

	09-12-2002 17:23									#8
	Remove this text

Yes, it would be nice if they could get it out earlier. But I'm with (most) everyone in rather having a great game that doesn't get all wiggy on me, which is the seventh most annoying thing in the universe.

Oh well. I'll just dust off something I haven't played in a year or two - SimCity 3000. Build a nice town and burn it to the ground in a fit of despotic rage when the citizens dare to ask for lower taxes. That'll keep me occupied until MOO3 finally descends from on high.

	09-12-2002 17:36									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I wonder if all the people saying “do you want it done now or do you want it done right?” have the same attitude for their own work?

Do you tell you boss/professor “stop whining about me not having the report ready, if you don’t want me to give you a piece of crap you’ll just have to wait patently”? I really don’t see why we (the consumer) can’t expect something to be on time and done right.

Sure I would prefer late than done poorly, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t screwed up by being late. At work and school I’ve always been expected to have things done both on time and correctly, I see no reason why I shouldn’t be able to expect the same.

	09-12-2002 19:33									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If they release it in 17/1/03 it will be for my birthday! QS

	09-12-2002 20:32									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Randolph I wonder if all the people saying “do you want it done now or do you want it done right?” have the same attitude for their own work? Do you tell you boss/professor “stop whining about me not having the report ready, if you don’t want me to give you a piece of crap you’ll just have to wait patently”? I really don’t see why we (the consumer) can’t expect something to be on time and done right. Sure I would prefer late than done poorly, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t screwed up by being late. At work and school I’ve always been expected to have things done both on time and correctly, I see no reason why I shouldn’t be able to expect the same.

Yeah, you know what, in the real world (in the working world) things have to be done right AND on time. Many master's and phD candidates assign themselves deadlines to present their thesis and/or research, and the their work is only as good as sticking to the schedule of presenting what they've done over the last so many months or years. Its important, then, when doing extraordinary work to post a reasonable presentation date. Lets say that Ford or GM envision an entirely fuel efficient, revolutionary car. How often are they allowed to pushback the release date on such a car before the consumer's begin losing faith!!! This company has done nothing but fouled things up from the very beginning, in terms of PR. I mean, do I have to spell it out? DON"T MAKE ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS ABOUT RELEASE UNTIL YOU"RE DAMN SURE ITS READY

Quixote

	09-12-2002 22:29									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

At least this forum proves ignorance is bliss.

The Computer gaming industry is not the same as real life, they get paid 85,000$ to make and play a game. While police officers get paid 35,000-40,000 to get shot at and deal with ******.

So don't try and say, "but...but it's there job to do it right! The next person who complains I'll laugh at cause I get my thrills like that online."

As consumers, it is not only our right to disagree with what a company does, but our obligation to do so.

Delaying a game proves nothing, and the majority of bugs will always be there -- they don't find them all by playtesting 25 people...they find it by selling 250,000 copies, and have 250,000 people tell them, "Hey -- this is broken."

Take NWN for example, Bioware finally said, "It's not bug-free, but the longer we delay the less we get done. So we'll ship it now, and work with the people and what they think."

The fans, the people who PAY the money have every right to say what they want. Freedom of speech is paramount, if you don't like it try living somewhere that doesn't have it.

If there are bugs present in the game, that they JUST found, they won't magically fix them in one month. And if you think they can -- why didn't they discover these bugs before? It's not as if they started the game last year --

Ask yourself this, what would you prefer? Playing a game with a couple bugs over X-Mas break, or waiting more months to get a game...and you have to admit it, 90% of you couldn't find a bug in a game if you tried.

	09-12-2002 22:38									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I agree a hundred percent Maestro. Though I look forward to the day where a game released is bugless, none of us should strain our eyes too hard, because it will probably never happen, especially games that at the level of MOO3 (I hope that the level of MOO3 is worth mentioning). I think the bug that we've been told about is pretty serious, to the effect that it makes a whole part of the game unplayable (multiplayer) because you can't save games.

I'm just saying that having updated us all along the way with so much, its only fair that towards the end, with the finish line so near, that we get more frequent updates....for no other reason than they themselves have proclaimed gold status to be really close.

Quixote

	09-12-2002 23:14									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Bloody hell, I'm looking forward to it myself but it is just a game. Riots will not occur if it misses it's deadlines. Gain some perspective, man.

	09-12-2002 23:25									#15
	Tired of ads?

85,000$ Maybe some do, but Ive always heard that salaries in game programming is less than elsewhere in the industry, especially starting out. As in closer to 35k than 85k.

	10-12-2002 08:04									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Randolph I wonder if all the people saying “do you want it done now or do you want it done right?” have the same attitude for their own work? Do you tell you boss/professor “stop whining about me not having the report ready, if you don’t want me to give you a piece of crap you’ll just have to wait patently”? I really don’t see why we (the consumer) can’t expect something to be on time and done right. Sure I would prefer late than done poorly, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t screwed up by being late. At work and school I’ve always been expected to have things done both on time and correctly, I see no reason why I shouldn’t be able to expect the same.

Your boss is and has been paying you money to ensure your performance.

You have not paid a single dime yet.

	10-12-2002 08:23									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro At least this forum proves ignorance is bliss. The Computer gaming industry is not the same as real life, they get paid 85,000$ to make and play a game. While police officers get paid 35,000-40,000 to get shot at and deal with ******.

Find me 10 job posting offering 85k for a programming position. Wake up genious, game programmers are in hard times right now and people are getting laid off all the time. You obviously did not keep up with the last year and a half of repeated studio closures.

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro So don't try and say, "but...but it's there job to do it right! The next person who complains I'll laugh at cause I get my thrills like that online."

It is there job to do it right retard.

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro As consumers, it is not only our right to disagree with what a company does, but our obligation to do so.

No, disagree with them for the sake of disagreeing with them is not our obligation.

The consumer's obligation is to do good research before making a purchase, and making it known via word of mouth or other means whether or not the product is worth money

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro Delaying a game proves nothing, and the majority of bugs will always be there -- they don't find them all by playtesting 25 people...they find it by selling 250,000 copies, and have 250,000 people tell them, "Hey -- this is broken."

This arrogant little statement comming from a retard who has not touched a single build of the game. Hell why not release the alpha build and let the communitee tell us, oh ya, there is missing art here. Or oh ya, save games don't work.

If you want a REAL entertainment software model, you look at Blizzard who go through hell to make sure there are as little bugs as possible and they are willing to push back release dates until they get it right.

Result? All of their games work the first time out of the box and come with bugs so obscure 99.9% of the people can never patch the game and never know there was anything wrong.

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro Take NWN for example, Bioware finally said, "It's not bug-free, but the longer we delay the less we get done. So we'll ship it now, and work with the people and what they think."

That is their decision to make. Not yours. They feel that the state of the game was at a point where it was worthy of release. This is comming from the people who program and test the builds each day.

You, the retard, on the other hand who has not coded a single line, not tested a single build is making decisions about whether it is worthy of release based on short little tibitds of information released by the developers. You don't even know exactly what was wrong with the game that made them push it back other than it being a multiplayer corrpution bug that occurs in late game.

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro The fans, the people who PAY the money have every right to say what they want. Freedom of speech is paramount, if you don't like it try living somewhere that doesn't have it.

Wrong again. You have paid NOTHING. The PUBLISHER is the one footing the bill for development and as such it is THEIR right to choose the timetable for release. As such, if the game is buggy, it is most likely the publisher's fault for pushing it out the door. If it is late, it is the publisher's decision to make it late and rightly so since they foot most of the bill and only recoup that once the game hits the shelves.

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro If there are bugs present in the game, that they JUST found, they won't magically fix them in one month. And if you think they can -- why didn't they discover these bugs before? It's not as if they started the game last year --

You obviously have no idea what goes on in software development. In the final stages of produciton, the test team will often recieve Release Candidate builds once every 48 - 72 hours. Every pass through the RC reveals more and more bugs and these bugs are isolated, reproduced and STOMPED ususally by the next RC they get.

As for your absolutly retarded comment of why didn't thtey show up before - thats because in the process of fixing something after the code is locked down, you OFTEN end up breaking something else because the programmers made an oversite, or the original bug was just a mask of the real problem that was only revealed after the first bandaid was applied. That is why there is something called REGRESSION testing.

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro Ask yourself this, what would you prefer? Playing a game with a couple bugs over X-Mas break, or waiting more months to get a game...and you have to admit it, 90% of you couldn't find a bug in a game if you tried.

I would perfer to have a product that is well polished, throughly tested so that my chances of running into a bug are next to nothing.

I HATE it when I run into bugs and I have ran into many many many over my years of gaming. You obviously have no idea how the game industry works or how software development works so the best thing you can do is STFU.

	10-12-2002 12:32									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Canadians.. can't live with em.. too close to nuke.

Ya think you could at least pull out a thesaurus and come up with a few different insults than you retard.. you retard.. you retard.. oh and my personal favorite.. you retard.

	10-12-2002 12:44									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

He's gonna have to start paying royalties to someone if he goes on

	10-12-2002 17:49									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

So where exactly in all that does it explain why we can't expect a developer to have something ready when they say they will? When you implied that "the developer owes you nothing [throw in a "you retard" here and there]".... certainly an *interesting* business strategy, but not one likely to win many loyal customers.

No one is trying to say it doesn't take time to make a game, just that - as professionals - they should be able to set deadlines and stick to them.

	10-12-2002 19:01									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Corentor If you want a REAL entertainment software model, you look at Blizzard who go through hell to make sure there are as little bugs as possible and they are willing to push back release dates until they get it right. Result? All of their games work the first time out of the box and come with bugs so obscure 99.9% of the people can never patch the game and never know there was anything wrong.

Blizzard? A real software model?? LOL! You mean like in Diablo2 where they had to continiously patch and tweak the game balance 6 months after the game was released? Or when they take 3 years to release a game and the max reoslution is 640 X 480?? Or where they BROKE some of the internal mechanism's of the game with an expansion pack and never fixed them?

Ah, yeah right. If you want to demonstrate a company that produces good games then take your pick, there are a lot, but don't say that everything that Blizzard does everything perfect all the time, or that they are the people that all other developers should look to.

	10-12-2002 20:22									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

HEY!!!! How did this turn into a Canada thing?! Human qualities knowns no political bounds...

Without Canada, all the American nerds and geeks would have no "girlfriends" to brag about to their friends!!! So there!

	10-12-2002 23:37									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You retard. You're such a retard. I only know how to use one insult and attempt to make fun of people online.

You retard. I can't spell genius right, but you're the retard I swear! You said they make 85,000 and they don't, you're a retard! I swear you're a retard! You're such a retard! Why do you post retard? Retard.

You're a bigot. You obviously have a problem with people that have a handicap of some kind which means you are a discriminator. Since you discriminate it means a lot of people wouldn't like you -- and you're all alone.

	10-12-2002 23:41									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It's not the latest delay that's getting to me, but looking at the back of the Civ3 manual:

'MOO3 - First Contact begins Q1 2002'

	11-12-2002 00:04									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Its sucks that now we can't even VIEW the Infogrames forum without a "valid" email address. IG become more open, as Apolyton did many moons ago, and let us in!

Quixote

	11-12-2002 00:32									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Can't get on at all right now, they have some serious server problems (user overload to an extreme)

	11-12-2002 00:56									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Myrddin It's not the latest delay that's getting to me, but looking at the back of the Civ3 manual: 'MOO3 - First Contact begins Q1 2002'

I agree that DOES suck.

CivIII has (mostly) been a disappointment, and Moo3 is simply a BIG question mark.

Will it EVER appear at all? And will it be worth the wait?

	11-12-2002 02:14									#28
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Blizzard? A real software model?? LOL! You mean like in Diablo2 where they had to continiously patch and tweak the game balance 6 months after the game was released? Or when they take 3 years to release a game and the max reoslution is 640 X 480?? Or where they BROKE some of the internal mechanism's of the game with an expansion pack and never fixed them? Ah, yeah right. If you want to demonstrate a company that produces good games then take your pick, there are a lot, but don't say that everything that Blizzard does everything perfect all the time, or that they are the people that all other developers should look to.

You could play Diablo 2 out of the box and finish the game without encountering a gamebreaking problem. That is better than 80% of all the games out there. I also played through D2 Exp without downloading any patch and never got problems.

That is better than 90% of the games out there. Blizzard is far and away the best company when it comes to releasing a game with the fewest number of bugs in it.

Add to that free matchmaking service, reguarly updated ladder and that makes them a top tier company. Result? Blizzard rakes it in every time they release a game. Do developers and publishers want to rake in in everytime? Bet they sure do.

	11-12-2002 02:26									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro You retard. You're such a retard. I only know how to use one insult and attempt to make fun of people online. You retard. I can't spell genius right, but you're the retard I swear! You said they make 85,000 and they don't, you're a retard! I swear you're a retard! You're such a retard! Why do you post retard? Retard.

You obviously missed the fact that it indeed you are the retard when I pointed out that

a) you complain about the need to excercise your consumer rights when you don't even know what they are

b) you question their ability to find bugs (stupid shouldn't they have found this months ago? comment) when you obviously have never coded a single line of a real program in your life

c) you also have seem to have magical fantasies about having paid for a prodcut when you haven't paid a single dime

quote: Originally posted by TheMaestro You're a bigot. You obviously have a problem with people that have a handicap of some kind which means you are a discriminator. Since you discriminate it means a lot of people wouldn't like you -- and you're all alone.

What a weak response. Your only defence after I ripped your "argument", if such a pathetic post filled with incorrect information can be construed as a legitmate argument, is to call me a bigot. Trying to claim I hate handicapped people when I obviously used the word retard to describe your stupidity is weak and pathetic. So is nitpicking at spelling.

Well I guess I can't blame you since thats all you have left after I made you realise your pathetic post made no sense at all.

The only people I have problem with are people like YOU who whine and complain about not getting a game out for your precious X-mas holidays. You are part of the reason why publishers think they can shovel **** in place of real software and get away with it. Guess what? They can because there are really dumb people like you who demand to get a software product that has known game breaking issues and is of inferior quality. I really don't blame the publishers anymore for releasing crap since there are mindless sheep like you gobbling it up and forking over money in the process.

	11-12-2002 02:33									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Randolph So where exactly in all that does it explain why we can't expect a developer to have something ready when they say they will? When you implied that "the developer owes you nothing [throw in a "you retard" here and there]".... certainly an *interesting* business strategy, but not one likely to win many loyal customers.

It is not intresting at all. In fact it is the only thing that makes sense. You do not build customer loyalty by giving them a half assed product full of bugs. You build customer loyalty by giving them a polished piece of software that they feel is worth their money. If that means pushing back the release date, then so be it.

I guess Blizzard is real stupid constantly pushing back their games or even outright canceling their games because it did not meet their standards.

But I mean, why follow blizzard's lead. I mean their games never make it off the shelf, no one ever buys them

quote: Originally posted by Randolph No one is trying to say it doesn't take time to make a game, just that - as professionals - they should be able to set deadlines and stick to them.

Welcome to the realworld of software design and engineering. Deadlines are created by optimists who think everything will go smoothly along. Its good to have a date to meet. But pushing out a game if its not ready just to meet a date is just foolish.