08-12-2002 00:56									#1
	Removing distance corruption? Get a bigger avatar today!

Alright. this has been annoying me for awhile now. Having colonys or large empires that have been around through historys is nearly impossible with the distance corruption. The only thing that slightly helps it is the Forbidden Palace, and in my current game i'm hopinh on a leader from war because the citys I have a chance to build it in produce 1 shield no matter what, even with Courthouses.

So what i'm wondering is there a way to reduce corruption caused by difference specifically? Large citys should still be corrupt, so i'll leave that the same. I know this sort of makes the Forbidden Palace useless, but it will still make one city corruption free. So if theres a way to do it please post, and also post wether this might be considered a 'cheat' or not in terms of affecting gameplay.

	08-12-2002 02:22									#2
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Sorry I dont know of a way to acheive what you are after but I just wanted to share a thought Ive got. In reality most empires that have come and gone have not suffered such high corruption as you find in civ3 and as you say the FP does help this a little. I would like to see an addittional city structure to further reduce corruption, perhaps a prison/jail or perhaps the ability to build extra FP's when you reach a certain number of cities.

As you say having a large spread out empire is difficult the way things are at present. If you could have extra FP's you could have regional centres of government in your far flung clusters of cities which would make large empires more productive.

I do like this game and like the way it plays, in civ 2 it was to easy to control the entire map but maybe things could be improved slightly with either of my suggestions.

I think the number of cities required to get a second FP should be quiet high but in relation to the size of map you are playing. I know that calling them FP is probably wrong but The affects of FP is what Im thinking and the name could be changed as required.

	08-12-2002 02:29									#3
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Overall, to remove distance corruption, just change governments to Communist. Works quite well for the towns on the frontier. If you have a FP (anywhere), WITH courthouses and police stations (even in your core cities), then your overall corruption might be around 15-20%.

Of course, you don't get the additional commerce in each commerce-producing tile.

Otherwise, those frontier towns need to be cities (size=6) for WLTKD to get substantially more production.

--
Now, more towards what you are actually requesting: No.
What you seem to want is the benefits of communism without its drawbacks. Now that would be cheating!

You can adjust your Optimal City Number in the Editor:World Sizes tab, but this also affects when you can build your FP. You can also adjust OVERALL (not distance) corruption in the Difficulty Levels tab with the corruption slider for each difficulty level. Remember, the AI plays at Chieftan level (unless you change that also (General Settings, lower right)).

	08-12-2002 03:54									#4
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Yes, Chrisius those are my thoughts as well. Another FP would help decrease corruption and make large empires more viable, but then theres still the cost of it to worry about. Right now all but 1 shield even with a Courthouse are lost, so 200 turns for FP. Maybe with WTLKD I can get a few more shields, but Civ3 seems to hate oversea Empires. The only thing i've got left really is to go warmongering for a leader, which is annoying since I like a peaceful/non-peaceful solution to things, rather then only one possible route.

I'm in the 1300s, although this is a game with 24 civs, 2 techs shy of the Industrial Age right now. So Communism is still a way off, and it'd probably cripple my Empire rather then help it. I want my colonys to grow yes, but not for my core citys that provide all my income/science to suffer. And no, I don't want all the benefits of Communism either. I simply wanted distance corruption reduced, or more ways to fight it rather then remove all corruption. The only time I go to Communism is if i'm set for a long war and can use no WW and the extra unit support, never for reducing Corruption.

So no, I don't think it would be cheating. With how Civ3 is currently America would have never been, Britain would have been a minor power, etc... I'm fine to suffer some corruption for distance, but when I lose 90% even with a Courthouse, 7 luxarys, and a strong garrison in the city, it makes no sense. I don't want to remove corruption or reduce it in general because that would unbalance the game. Lowering distance corruption would probably help the AI more the the player with how they place their FP most of the time. Oh well, just another thing to ask Firaxis to toss onto the mythical "wish list" I guess.

	08-12-2002 04:04									#5
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But communism can just crash your economy within 4 turns

	08-12-2002 04:46									#6
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Yes there is still the problem of building the FP like you say.Perhaps another city improvement is the better way to go, at least you can rush build courthouses and police stations with gold.

You know how when you build so many of certain improvements you can build small wonders well what if youre empire had many courthouses you got an extra bit of anti corruption from them for having established a good quantity of them.

EDIT for instance lets say youve built courthouses in 20 of your cities, it would be nice if they could increase in ability a little to reflect the acheivment of building a good network of law enforcement buildings.

	08-12-2002 05:05									#7
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Communism will only crash you economy if it wasn't strong to start with. While you will have less commerce, I find that for very large empires it is quit viable, especially if you were planning on a little warmongering.

	08-12-2002 05:30									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

you could always start playing the DyP mod - in addition to the:

Palace
Forbidden Palace

it has:
Summer Palace
Winter Palace
Supreme Court

Holy City (reduces corruption in the one city only i think)

=======================
also in addition to the usual
courthouses &
police stations

it has

prisons
district courthouses
and some other stuff too if I recall

	08-12-2002 07:16									#9
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sounds great is it here at poly ?

	08-12-2002 07:48									#10
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Yes that would help, though its all still costly small wonders/late game improvements isn't it? Played it before, but I might load it up again since with its added techs and other improvements we'd reach the modern age later.

http://civ3.bernskov.com/ <---Link for DyP mod.

	08-12-2002 08:44									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

before I forget - it's still a beta version (although it's soooo good that it's the ONLY version of Civ3 that I play these days)

you absolutely *must* use editor to disable anyone from building land mines (unfortunately the AI locks up the comp when it tries to unload landmines (0 movement) from a naval transport)

other than that - have a blast - note that any unit with a bow, javelin or gun has bombardment and most naval units (even battleships and destroyers) can carry ground forces =)

	08-12-2002 14:57									#12
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DyP Mod does look like a good mod with a lot to offer & offers solutions to Distance Corruption for the player.

However, since the AI is horrible at placing FPs (like right next to its capital) all those FPs just makes the game easier against the AI. This has been 1 of my main reservations from starting a DyP game. Especially since the AI does not know how to fight corruption as well as a human (rushing, etc.). If you simply want a solution for your Distance Corruption & not for the AI players then go ahead, it does look juicy.

As of now, the best solution I have heard for a balanced Distance Corruption solution is lowering the Corruption Slider in the editor overall (not the # of cities) to 70-80% or so.

	09-12-2002 01:40									#13
	Put an end to popups!

I try to get a "We Love the ______ Day" in the city building the FP. That helps.

	09-12-2002 01:42									#14
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Yes, it looks like with the WTLKD i'll be able to build the FP in a reasonable amount of time. Still hoping to get lucky and have one of my Siphais pop a leader from this war with Persia though.

	09-12-2002 06:53									#15
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus As you say having a large spread out empire is difficult the way things are at present. If you could have extra FP's you could have regional centres of government in your far flung clusters of cities which would make large empires more productive.

It's easy enough to add your own. You can make as many as you want.

	22-12-2002 23:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew As of now, the best solution I have heard for a balanced Distance Corruption solution is lowering the Corruption Slider in the editor overall (not the # of cities) to 70-80% or so.

That and/or giving one or more additional city improvements the lower corruption attribute. I often let the banks do that job, it makes the cities more efficient as they get more developed.

This change works very well for me since I often build in the order courthouse->bank->police station (and because I need the police station in all cities anyway to convince my people that war is fun)

	23-12-2002 03:32									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid That and/or giving one or more additional city improvements the lower corruption attribute. I often let the banks do that job, it makes the cities more efficient as they get more developed. This change works very well for me since I often build in the order courthouse->bank->police station (and because I need the police station in all cities anyway to convince my people that war is fun)

Not exactly realistic though. It's money that creates corruption to begin with, so an institution that deals in that aspect of society isn't a good choice IMHO. Enron etc. is an excellant example of that.

Personally my approach is to add improvements that contribute to anti-corruption, not just alter something that already exists. For instance, why are there no Prisons in the game?

	23-12-2002 03:44									#18
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A prison could be an interesting option. Make it reduce corruption, but make people unhappy ("I don't want it in my neighborhood").

	23-12-2002 03:52									#19
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I know, but it works well with the game's mechanics.
Besides, I don't have time to do any dramatic changes. Therefore I usually play with the standard rules except when I want to play a builder game, then I change the corruption slider and let the banks reduce it further

In this matter, I mainly see the banks as a sign that the city is maturing and thus (hopefully) becoming more efficient and less corrupt.

Prisons? Would be cool, but I think they are already represented by the police stations (get the peacemongers to jail!), just like the colosseum represents things like a football stadium.

Btw, am I the only one to think that the Internet wonder should increase waste?

	23-12-2002 04:00									#20
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm A prison could be an interesting option. Make it reduce corruption, but make people unhappy ("I don't want it in my neighborhood").

Exactly! That's what I've done in my game, as well as have a negative culture number. The criminal sub-society isn't exactly condusive to the overall culture! So you can reduce corruption, but you pay a price in another area.

	23-12-2002 04:09									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Exactly! That's what I've done in my game, as well as have a negative culture number.

Nice idea!

Just a silly question: what happens if the city's culture goes down below zero? Does it drag other civs' borders closer to you?

	23-12-2002 04:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Prisons? Would be cool, but I think they are already represented by the police stations (get the peacemongers to jail!), just like the colosseum represents things like a football stadium.

But dealt with on a very superficial level, there's lots of room for expansion in that area.

And what's with this sending peacemakers to jail? They should be held up as heroes, especially in this point in our history! I'm especially surprised by this response since you're flying the EU flag.

	23-12-2002 04:14									#23
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Willem And what's with this sending peacemakers to jail? They should be held up as heroes, especially in this point in our history! I'm especially surprised by this response since you're flying the EU flag.

Hey, it's just a game!
In real life, I am a peacemonger

	23-12-2002 04:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Nice idea! Just a silly question: what happens if the city's culture goes down below zero? Does it drag other civs' borders closer to you?

No, it won't go into negative culture. In fact, if I have any sort of buillding that produces culture, I always get at least 1 per turn. So if I have improvements that add 6 culture, and ones that subtract the same amount, I still end up with 1 per turn.

	23-12-2002 04:24									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Hey, it's just a game! In real life, I am a peacemonger

Living next door to the US at this period in time, I feel it's my obligation to take any opportunity I can to promote restraint. And I'm hoping everyone else in the world has the same attitude.

Especially since it's the season of "Peace on earth, goodwill towards all men" And women of course! I didn't write that stuff, don't blame me.

	23-12-2002 04:28									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I should look into this. It really makes sense the way you have it. You need to build more culture in a city with a prison.

Related story: a friend of mine works in a research lab in Hammersmith, London. It stands right next to a prison. Is this perhaps one of your cities?

	23-12-2002 04:48									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid I should look into this. It really makes sense the way you have it. You need to build more culture in a city with a prison.

I've done the same with other buildings as well, like Factories and Barracks for instance.

quote: Related story: a friend of mine works in a research lab in Hammersmith, London. It stands right next to a prison. Is this perhaps one of your cities?

I don't see culture as appropriate for Research labs. Universities yes, since they also deal with history, literature, art etc. I tend to draw a line between pure science and culture.

	23-12-2002 15:48									#28
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I like the negative culture! That's a great idea.

	23-12-2002 18:45									#29
	Courthouse sucks Put an end to popups!

like most of the people here i can just agree.
What i find most frustrating is the fact that the courthouses makes nearly no difference if you build them or not, and this is a shame, isnt it? I mean why they had put them into play when they have nearly no effect. They should have made the courthouse more expansive perhaps, but it should defenitly guarantee a minimum of reduced corruption.
But do you know what pisses me off mostly: It is that it should be perfectly logical that courthouses have a strong effect, its one of the most important structures, when not the most important for a civilization to be created and to be surviving. I mean if Marketplaces, Libraries and Barracks are so important in the game, why not the courthouse?????

	23-12-2002 18:53									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

They should tweak courthouses to guarantee an improvement of at least 1 unwasted shield and 1 uncorrupted gold, even if building it still has the math giving you 95% corruption in the city. It is extremely annoying to rush a courthouse in a city and get absolutely no benefit from it. It's even more annoying when you build a police station, and still only produce 1 shield.

Another solution I would suggest - play emperor level. Chances are, corruption will be the last thing on your mind.