09-12-2002 02:01									#31
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Not a bad plan.

There is one small possibility. The chance is very remote, but if it happened, we would be in some trouble. The third warrior moves 6-6 to uncover the mouth of the river.

The next turn someone's warior pops up on the mountain (the first one). They see an undefended capitol. What would we do? They say, 'Charge!' We move one back. They move adjacent. We move in. They attack. Very dicey outcome. I think it would be better they see a fortified warrior when they get to the top of that mountain.

	09-12-2002 02:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO NYE, I'm not disagreeing that we need to have a full picture of the surroundings, but just pointing out that most likely we already have a position where eventually a city will need to be built (mound of the river, on the coast), so following the rest of the pattern this will more or less fix every other place.

Would you rather the econ school work their magic on a poor city at the mouth of the river, or a super rich one (maybe a cow or two) for our second city?

/Edit. The port will not be poor. It will have access to some fur tiles. But there may be better sites out there for the second city. Also, do we want to plonk our cities down on the coast without a good survey of the coast. I always hate it when I discover I missed that Whale because I did not do the survey properly, first.

	09-12-2002 02:13									#33
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Ouch! I hadn't thought about that mountain's being a perfect place to look down on our capital from.

	09-12-2002 02:16									#34
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Yeah, we should explore it a little of course. I too hate missing the whale, even if in the chosen layout there will only be a small chance we won't be able to use it later on. But like you alread mentioned, the fur means it will be decent anyway, maybe not ideal, but decent. And if we want to have a coastal city within a 3 move radius, we only have 2 spots there, on both sides of the river.

Further, as to the place of the 2nd city: of course, I'd love it with some cows, or otherwise worthy terrain, but if we have 2 2/2/2 tiles, all should be well anyway. I'd rather settle fast, then start looking for that ideal site which will bring more benefits in 20 turns or so. But that's just me

DeepO

	09-12-2002 02:26									#35
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Our production plan entails not settling fast, to start. For that reason, I think settling most effectively is more important.

	09-12-2002 02:45									#36
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I do NOT want to lose out on twenty turns of a cow just because we didn't scout the immediate neighborhood. Also, I don't like the idea of being so slavishly devoted to a 3-distance build pattern that we don't position our cities, especially our early cities, to take maximum advantage of available bonuses.

	09-12-2002 02:47									#37
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okay, okay, I'l shut up... I'm in the minority here. But from time to time, a Devil's advocate can be handy

DeepO

	09-12-2002 02:54									#38
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I do NOT want to lose out on twenty turns of a cow just because we didn't scout the immediate neighborhood. Also, I don't like the idea of being so slavishly devoted to a 3-distance build pattern that we don't position our cities, especially our early cities, to take maximum advantage of available bonuses.

I agree. There are rules, and then exceptions to the rules.

	09-12-2002 03:05									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO But from time to time, a Devil's advocate can be handy

Agreed. Different people bring different perspectives, and one thing I hope for this game to accomplish is to provide a nice opportunity to share ideas and strategies.

Actually, if we had a stronger starting position, I might be more inclined to skimp on local exploration. But with flood plains as the only tiles in our capital's radius with more than two food, the second city is a lot more important.

Nathan

	09-12-2002 03:14									#40
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About the threat of an enemy Warrior (or Archer ), perhaps we can time Gronk's northern loop to coincide with the 3rd Warrior's ('Little Grog'?) explorations?

	09-12-2002 04:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The plan, as of turn 6. T6: 5f, warrior complete, build another. T7: 7f, warrior complete (chopping done), order another, begin irr T8: 9f, 1s. Switch citizen to fur tile. T9: 11f, 4s. Irrigation done, move to next fur T10: 13f, 7s. Begin chop T11: 15f, warrior complete. Order barracks. T12: 17f, 3s. T13: 19f, 6s. Move citizen to unchopped fur, hope auto-allocation sets new citizen to irrigated fur (will check on this). T14: Size 2. 0f, 11s. T15: 1f, 26s (chop done), begin irrigation T16: 2f, 31s. T17: 4f, 36s, irrigation done, move to floodplain across river (west) T18: 6f, barracks complete, choose settler. begin irrigation T19: 8f, 5s, switch 1 citizen to fp. T20: 11f, 8s, irrigation done, begin road. T21: 14f, 11s. T22: 17f, 14s. road done, move to 2nd floodplain T23: Size 3, 0f, 19s, begin irrigation. T24: 3f, 24s, move another citizen to 2nd floodplain T25: 7f, 27s, irrigation done, begin road. T26: settler complete, select another, size 1, food depends on auto-allocation (fp or furs) assume fur. 9f. Change to fp. T27: 12f, 1s, road done, move to fur to the east. T28: 15f, 2s, begin chop. T29: 18f, 3s. switch citizen to fur. T30: Size 2, 0f, 6s (or 8 if autoallocate chooses fur, but I think fp). Allocate both cits to fp. T31: 4f, 7s. T32: 8f, 8s. T33: 12f, 19s (chop done), begin road. T34: 16f, 20s, switch both citizens to furs. T35: 18f, 25s. road done. T36: Settler done, size 1, 0f.

Ahem.

Aren't we going to discover The Wheel at some point prior to T26?

	09-12-2002 05:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Aren't we going to discover The Wheel at some point prior to T26?

The latest screenshot is indicating 20 turns to completion, and we should be able to shave a little more off that. So yes. You're thinking horse availability may impact where we want to settle, and that we want to know where the horses are in our neighborhood?

	09-12-2002 05:43									#43
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Well that, yes, and also when do we want to start building WCs...

	09-12-2002 06:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Well that, yes, and also when do we want to start building WCs...

When we get horses connected? Seriously, that's about the only answer that can be given at this point. We may have horses within our initial city radius or the radius of a good candidate for our second city, or it may make sense to wait a while to hook up horses so we can focus on city sites with higher growth and/or production potentail.

Nathan

	09-12-2002 06:18									#45
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Haha...

Seriously, it's occurred to me tonight that we are pretty much a lock to have the first fastmovers out there... with all this discussion of maps (and the confirmation that barbs don;t trigger GAs ), I realized that sending out some exploring WCs will be POWERFUL.

Sidenote: I'll still want them to mostly stick to defense bonus tiles, just in case a newly discovered civ / team is slick enough to want to burn our GA.

Sidenote #2: Nathan, very glad you here. Want to comment on the overall military discussion I'm trying to get going?

	09-12-2002 06:54									#46
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I guess what I'm saying is that at T33, if we get lucky and have a connected Horse resource, we might want to build a WC.

The ensuing Settler would still get the benefit of the chop, and on Regent we're OK with a lux and 1 MP up to pop 4 (right?).

	09-12-2002 10:17									#47
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If I'm reading the timeline correctly, the idea is to build our second settler back-to-back with our first, using flood plains for growth and chopping to make up for the fact that flood plains don't provide shields. Building a WC during that time would mess up that plan. On the other hand, if we don't build some kind of military unit in between, we have no escort for our settler.

Yes, one lux and one MP can do us up to size 4, not that I'm too worried about it at this point. With the kind of high-gold tiles we have, I'm not the slightest bit afraid to use the lux slider in the early game rather than let an arbitrary city size limit interfere with our plans.

Nathan

	09-12-2002 10:20									#48
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I'm not strenuously arguing the point... I just like the idea of getting WCs out sooner rather than later. Would a WC mess up the Settler building so much?

Agreed about happiness.

	09-12-2002 11:12									#49
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It would delay the settler by however long it takes to come up with 20 extra shields (plus or minus any difference in wastage). Actually, at size three, that would only be four turns working one flood plains tile and two irrigated furs if we can avoid wasting extra shields in the process. So the benefits of a WC to serve as escort and maybe scout ahead a little in the process might be worth it (especially since we'd keep growing pop toward our third settler in the meantime).

A bigger problem is, how would we hook up the horses? Our first worker is pretty heavily committed at the moment; as it is, I'll probably take a closer look at some point to see if we really want to keep the worker so busy in the capital rather than using him to help our second city. (Of course if the capital and second city share furs, working the capital may also be preparing tiles for use by the second city.)

	10-12-2002 02:29									#50
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Nathan's understanding of "the plan" is correct: I wanted to bounce the city pop back quickly, sacrificing production while chopping to compensate. This also has the positive side effect of clearing a 3rd fur tile, which is off the river and therefore worth roading for both happiness AND commerce reasons.

However, I could reshuffle the plan to allow a spearman - or perhaps a warrior or two - inbetween, but a WC would require not only changing the citizen allocation & build queue, but also the worker actions. Assuming the very lucky development that horses are within our capitol radius, we will have to move the worker, most likely several tiles, road, and then come back.

I just don't see a WC until after settler #2. Upon discovery of the wheel, we can discuss it further, of course.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 02:42									#51
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We could one in our second city !?

Or do we have different ideas for that one?

Get cranking on that second build cue

	10-12-2002 03:04									#52
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I figure the second city should build a warrior, a worker, and after that it depends on what terrain is available to the city and whether or not our exploring warriors have met anyone yet (the relative proximity of other civs will help decide whether or not we will need to engage in early war or not).

Yeah, I'm about to start writing it out so I can test it.

-Arrian

	10-12-2002 05:12									#53
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Clarification: I'm suggesting slipping a WC in after the 2nd Settler on T26.

	10-12-2002 06:30									#54
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T26 is the FIRST settler, buddy. T36 is #2.

-Arrian