24-06-2000 00:58									#1
	Let's All Beg For A Mini-Patch Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I hope that we can appeal to Firaxis' sense of honor--after all, they out-and-out lied to us when they promised a "small patch now and a big patch later." I want to ask them to do a teeny weeny little patch that fixes just the worst, game-breaking bugs. A mini-patch.

If we gave them a small, reasonable list of bugs--I'm thinking five--and asked in our nicest manner possible, "Pretty please Firaxis, could you just fix these tiny little bugs that will hardly take you any time at all?" maybe we could get them to do it. I should make clear that I have no reason to believe that this will work other than blind optimism and a sense of fair play. They've got to know they're angering fans by blowing off the big fix. I don't believe they simply don't care; I think they regret it, but have to look at the big picture. They can't afford to give us what we really want. But I have to believe that if we presented them with an economical way to settle the score, they'd at least be interested. If we all got behind this idea, and made some noise and asked real nice-like, maybe we could make it happen.

So, hoping against hope, here, we need to do two things: come up with the bug list and figure out how to make the appeal to Firaxis.

First, the bug list: we need to agree on five bugs to ask for in a mini-patch. They have to be actual fixes--no modifications like "better AI" or "more balanced factions". This is my first stab:

1) Disappearing factions. I've never had this happen, but I've seen people report it, and it's a doozy of a bug.
2) Fake drones.
3) MP: Probe team notifications sent to probER instead of probEE.
4) MP: Demanding withdrawal from a human player via a right-click menu gives the request to the AI instead of opening the diplomacy screen.
5) The crash that happens during automatic aircraft interceptions (this also doesn't happen to me, so I hope I've described it correctly; it also seems pretty major).

I began this idea in another thread, and Ned commented that he would include the right-click airdropping bug and the stockpile energy bug, and that he thinks the disappearing factions bug is rare enough to leave off. What do other people think? Personally, I think the right-click airdrop bug is avoidable enough by honorable players that it doesn't count as "game-breaking". I'm hesitant to replace the disappearing factions bug with the stockpile energy bug, just because, for people it happens to, the disappearing factions bug is truly game-wrecking. But is it really rare enought not to put on the list? On the other hand, most people seem to shrug about the stockpiling bug, making me think it's not at the front of people's minds for a patch.

I'm hoping we can really come up with the five most annoying things, and really have a strong consensus on it. And once we build up that steam, we'll need to figure out part two: getting Firaxis' attention.

How would we go about this? Make one of those e-mailed petition things? Or hand the list off to MarkG and ask him to present it? It seems like the only ways to actually get Firaxis to respond to something is by weird accident (who can say why Jeff Morris popped up in that beer-drinking thread) or by making an appeal to MarkG. Are there other options? After all the work on the big bug list, it seemed like it evaporated once it was sent to Firaxis. How can we be sure that, even if they're ultimately going to dash our hopes, they at least hear them?

Well, I know I've been long-winded, but I'm really hoping we can make this last thing happen. Personally, I might even be happy if all we got was the elimination of the fake drones. But five bugs, is that too much to ask? I don't think so. Not when we were promised the world. If we say we're willing to forgive them, as long as they make this minor, minor effort in return, I think there's possibly a hint of a chance that we could melt the stony heart that is Firaxis Customer Support. Isn't it worth a try?
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited June 23, 2000).]

	24-06-2000 01:40									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have never had the dissappearing factions or interceptor bug so I don't care about that. I have never noticed the fake drones, but I have probably been affected.

The MP bugs are big and would love to see them fixed. The stockpiling bug is pretty big and would like to see that and the Paradrop bug fixed.

In reality any bug fixes would be appreciated by me!

	24-06-2000 03:38									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

A couple of bugs I've encountered concern loading and playing. Sometimes the loadup screen for SMAX takes a very long time to get from the selection screen to the intro movie...sometimes so long that I've assumed the computer to have crashed and restarted it.

That's the first. Second, when I'm playing SMAX even with sound FX and music off, I get plagued by sound fragments, of voiceovers, of unit attacks, etc, whenever I switch map position, or a popup menu appears, or I press a key.

These don't destroy the game for me, but they do strike me as pretty major. I don't play MP at all yet, so I don't know how major the bugs there are.


------------------
Machines: outthinkable YES outfightable NO.
Men: outfightable YES outthinkable NO.
Allie Cove: outfallable INEVITABLY

Homepage http://www.enixine.dabsol.co.uk (Shared)

	24-06-2000 07:07									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Alinestra, I agree those are annoying bugs, but do you think they should replace any of the five I pointed out? I think the MP bugs are pretty serious.

Garth votes down the interceptor crash and the disappearing factions. I think the crash is really serious, and from what I've read hereabouts it seems to ruin enough people's games that I think it should stay on. But I think the disappearing factions may have to go.

Is the infinite drop pods all that bad? Granted, it's a huge bug, but it's easy to avoid, and if you use the keyboard shortcuts instead of the right-click menu, it does work correctly.

And another voice wants to see the stockpile bug up there. Out of the small sampling so far, that's two out of three for including the stockpile bug. I guess it would replace the disappearing factions bug in the list. I'd really love to hear more opinions on all this, though.

	24-06-2000 09:27									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Enigma,

My vote

1) Stockpile energy
2) Rick click Airdrop
3) False Drones
4) Workshop upgrade and move in same turn
5) Upgraded crawlers should not be able to add minerals to SP's and Prototypes.

Ned

	25-06-2000 09:46									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This would matter to very few here, but for people who just have SMAC, fixing the maintenance-cost-at-thinker/transcend levels would be pretty useful. This should be easy to fix, since they've already fixed it in SMACX.

Something that I'd like for solitaire play would be fixing the bug that causing all the (wild) worms in a stack to die when you kill one, as if they were non-combat units. So you send one unit against a stack of 12 worms and get 720 energy. It should be easy enough to get the game to recognize worms as combat units, not non-combat units.

Or is this a feature as it is?

Out of the bugs people have already mentioned, I'd like to see the stockpile energy bug fixed (and it should be easy to do). I'd like to see the false drones bug fixed as well. The other bugs people have already mentioned, I don't feel strongly about.

	26-06-2000 19:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok. Consider it done.

*Beg*

Surely a few little bug fixes wouldn't take long.

- MKL

	26-06-2000 20:21									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Trouble is, game designers never throw money at dead games. SMAC is early last year's history, and they're going to continue to sell a few for the next year or so to casual gamers who don't care / won't notice. The main money's come in, anything else now is just gravy, and everybody (on the Firaxis end) has moved on.

The hardcore crowd who snapped up the game the first weeks and documented the bugs has long since paid for the game, so there's no money to be made off of them. How many total units did SMAC/X sell? How many of those gamers are active here and every other gaming site you can think of? One percent, two, three? Money in the industry is made off of store displays, shelf space, past reputation (that has nothing to do with present failures - look at Daikatana), and a captive mainstream game press that's little more than a venue for game advertisers.

Of course, you're assuming the code is well documented and maintainable. {snicker} Not likely in the game industry, which has more ego and less coding standards per line of code than any other segment of the software industry. Since many of the original programming crew are gone, having a new set come in to "fix" the code is likely to screw up more than they fix.

Look at older game titles from all designers and the last patch dates on them compared to issue dates. I'll bet you dollars to pesos that you'll never see a patch 18 months later from Firaxis. Even if some gamers decide Firaxis sucks for not issuing a patch and fixing the buggy game, I'll also bet you 95% of the people who complain the loudest will be there to plunk down their money on Civ III. The game industry is like selling crack to junkies - very few gamers will have the willpower to say "Never again - that designer has screwed its customers over in the past" when they see that slick package in the store.
[This message has been edited by MichaeltheGreat (edited June 26, 2000).]

	27-06-2000 09:55									#9
	Support Apolyton

Regrettably, MTG seems to have hit the nail on the head.

As long as we are examining some strange ideas like begging for a partial patch when a (reasonably) complete one was promised; how about an another equally strange idea: paying for a patch.

I, for one, am irritated enough with the SMACX crashes and fake drones bugs alone to be willing to shell out another $10 or $20. Clearly, I wouldn't be happy about it but I'd do it. If there was money in it, would that get Firaxis's attention? Don't know if this idea is feasible or not. Would they be able to prevent illegal copies of such a patch? Would there be legal ramifications for charging to fix something that was their fault in the first place? Sigh. Maybe I am just grasping at straws here.

Count me as one gamer who will not buy any more Firaxis games unless and until they do something more to making SMACX playable. There are plenty of great and complex games out there that do a much better job with bugs. And how can you reasonably expect that the whole great game/sloppy programming scenario won't just be repeated with Firaxis's next games?

	27-06-2000 00:22									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

RedFred, you ALREADY payed for a patch. That was SMACAX. You want to pay for another one?

MtG is VERY right. Firaxis HAD been considering bringing SMAC up to SMACAX standards, but it was OBVIOUSLY decided that the cost to Q&A versus how long you guys would appreciate it just wasn't worthwhile. That's no lie.

Firaxis had ALSO discussed (very lightly) making a last patch to close out the bugs in SMACAX version 2.1... but again, didn't. Why? QA costs. See, SMAC/SMACAX is an international product, and if they gave the English product a patch, they would need to do so for the other versions... Which is why they TOLD us to give them the big lists of bugs... the cost to them is the same. It's not just touch the code, recompile, and then make available on the web site. Nope. There's translations, and all that QA cost... and since they no longer get free QA, that's a SERIOUS concern of theirs.

What's that mean? They got your money suckers. And they know you are so stupid, idiotic, hooked, and weak, that you'll waste your money on their next product... You know. Civ 3. Which is just SMAC modified to an Earth Historical setting and slightly expanded and repackaged. Firaxis ADMITS it. They only REALLY new element is that they dropped that SMAC graphic engine (JACKAL) for something much better.

And of COURSE, SMAC was Civ2-A... it was Civ2 code modded and expanded... Firaxis has admitted that. Technically they "stole" the code from Microprose, but hey! How you gonna prove it? They did expand it and modify it... so the end effect is merely MODELLED, right? Reverse engineered?

And Civ2 was similarly modded and expanded Civ code... The Microprose Civ2 team admitted that. Now, somewhere, Net Legend has it that the code was modded and expanded from a PREVIOUS product, but I've never seen an ACTUAL Civ developer ADMIT that. (well, not that I can recall.)

So, RedFred. If, like me, you've actually paid for Civ, Civ 2, SMAC, SMACAX, you've REALLY been reamed. (Yes, I own all of those.)

And MtG, I will not buy a Sierra game if I can help it. And I won't accept any as a gift unless they were found for $5 or LESS... I'm serious.

Firaxis and Civ3... That, I'll consider. But early adopt (Pay full retail price for)? Not likely! Half price? Maybe...

If you guys REALLY want a patch, you need to REALLY sweet talk a developer with all the code. He (or she) could make an UNOFFICIAL release for you. But until Civ3, that's the ONLY way you are going to see a patch/next version of SMAC. You just aren't important. Firaxis HAS your money. It's concentrating on Sid's DinoCraft and Civ3. That's it's next revenue stream. And by then, there will be even MORE game consumers. So what if a few of you don't buy any more of their games, EVER? Big deal. There are always more NEW customers, coming in at a quick enough rate that no niche can ever LEARN that you shouldn't trust the company to deliver what it promises... and that is just the way it is. Until it becomes IMPORTANT to the companies to maintain customer loyalty and customer goodwill, they can treat us all like dog-poo and still make gobs and gobs and gobs of money.

So if you are going to waste your time on wishes, you might as well wish big...

-Darkstarr

	27-06-2000 22:41									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What a surprise: a huge complaint about shoddy customer support, a cynical explanation of why nothing will ever happen, a blood oath never to buy another game from Firaxis, blah, blah, blah.

Heard it all before, leave it at the door. I want to hear from people who want to DO something. Whine somewhere else.

Let's make this simpler. What are the top THREE bugs? This is my guess:

1) The fake drones
2) The Stockpile Energy bug
3) The right-click airdrops

Easy fixes, all.

If we agree on the top three, and we get organized, we can do it. We can do it, with a reasonable list and a LARGE consensus.

So, let's make a list we all agree on. Don't just say, "I want this and this and this to be fixed, too," say instead, "bug x should replace bug y". Three bugs, the top three, only three.

If we ask for something easy, and we have a loud voice, we have a chance.

	28-06-2000 01:27									#12
	Remove this text

Son, when I was your age we walked to school in three feet of snow up hill there and back and... Whoa! Sorry, my mind must have lapsed...

Any-who, I like all three of your ideas for the (would-be)patch: fake drones, right-click, and stockpile energy. I have yet to experience the intercept lock-up or the disappearing factions (perhaps it is time some of us upgrade our Vic-20's)though they sound like a really doozey. But!!! Those later bugs seem like a hell of a thing to fix, where as the first three seem simple enough. It would be nice to fix the MP probe bug as well as the withdraw troops bug, but I don't want to over extend my imagination I've sprained it that way before.

	28-06-2000 11:18									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes Helium Pond, some whining is taking place and I admit to being part of it. But, for the record and contrary to Darkstarr, I was happy to buy CivNet, Civ2, SMAC and SMACX. Money well spent. Exciting games all. Replayable as well. My whine was not about these games' quality as each has given me many hours of enjoyment; it was about the sloppy programming in SMAC/SMACX and Firaxis's latest customer relations faux pas.

My "blood oath" as you put it, is only partly due to the non-appearance of the patch. I have been playing Civ type games 6 or 7 years now. It is possible that another one will capture my interest, but unless there is a stunning leap forward, I kind of doubt it.

Best of luck in your mini-patch initiative. I am not trying to say that it won't succeed. I guess what I am saying is that you are being a little harsh towards some of the other more cynical posters here and a little too forgiving towards Firaxis. I presume that this is because you are trying to appeal to Firaxis's sense of pride and fair play.

Of course, if your initiative succeeds in capturing Firaxis's attention, that will reduce the chances of a more comprehensive patch from slim to none. Be cautious about dropping the bar too far. The more you pare down your bug list, the less useful the patch will ultimately be.

	28-06-2000 15:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

A Question for DS or some other programmer:

Guys, if you know anything about programming, write to me. If Firaxis won't do a patch, what would it take to get into the guts of the code and do it ourselves? (Don't explain it here...LOL, don't wanna get anybody in trouble or anything, but hypethetically, if we REALLY wanted a patch, surely there's a way to raise the proverbial hood and jimmy it around....decompile it or somesuch....)

-=Vel=-
(musing out loud)

	30-06-2000 16:02									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Well, I admit that the three bugs on the current list aren't all that exciting, but they seem to be the common thread in almost everyone's comments. And they seem really easy to fix. But no one really seems too into this idea. The only way it could work is if a bunch of us were willing to petition or something. I guess I'm not very good as a motivational speaker: I suppose "hey, let's beg..." isn't a grabber. I should have titled it "Let's put Firaxis on the Rack!" You try to be reasonable, see what it gets ya...

Really, I'd be overjoyed just to get the damn fake drones bug fixed. It's such an embarassment.

Ah, poot.

	01-07-2000 01:01									#16
	Suffering from ads?

Well I guess it's malatov cocktails and pipe bombs from here on out, eh?

I guess what I'm saying is I don't know where to go from this point. It seems emails are as good as carrier pigeons or putting a note in a bottle in the ocean. Maybe we're just missing a catchy slogan like "Hell no we won't go!" or "Where's the beef?". Anyway, maybe keeping this thread going would catch someones eye up on Mount Olympus. That or perhaps a sacrafical virgin or two to shake things up.
[This message has been edited by WhiteElephants (edited June 30, 2000).]

	01-07-2000 03:17									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

::Pout::

Why do I feel like I am missing out on something here?

Never had the fake drone syndrome; never had the interceptor crash, and never played enough PBEM to get the misdirected probe report.

Sure my game hangs in turn 2422 on a 960 x 900 map with 50% land, but they did warn me that it was unstable.

I need something to whine about (the right click multiple drop feature - heck just be disciplined enough not to use it)

Rats...ah well, I'll whine anyway (maybe the Random faction selection bringing up just one alien race - I thought that was fixed in the patch)

Googlie

	01-07-2000 11:37									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Okay, I'm starting a new thread, then, called "Let's All Beg Firaxis For A Deep-Dish Pizza." That should get some more people interested.

If we ask for something cheesy, and we have a loud voice, we have a chance.