09-12-2002 04:49									#1
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*From the desk of the Foreign Minister*

Godking, ambassador (or) FM of the Roleplay team, has arrived at my doorstep with the following requests.

He asks for the following: (didn't quote his PM due to 'poly rules, I haven't gotten his permission to post his PM yet, so I'll word for word it [almost])

1.) Both teams exchange w/ eachother a copy of the small location maps, with the intention of having our first explorers attempt to meet.
2.) The instant that either team is able to do so, we both agree to trade world maps.
3.)Technology - they are not researching military techs right now, they would be willing to trade for bronze working, iron working, and so forth. Their initial research is going towards literature so they can be the first to have libraries.
4.)Godking asks if we have made any agreements regarding Wonder construction. The Roleplayers have decided that if another team requests the RP'ers to not build a wonder that is already under construction, then they will NOT build that wonder if the other team agrees to not build the Wonder THEY are working on.

So far, that is all. He also told me that the RP'ers have 13 turns left until they build their first military unit, and that he would like to work out some sort of agenda between our two teams by the time that unit is created.

	09-12-2002 04:59									#2
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1. Again, I vote nay.
2. Interesting, but doesn;t that tremendously benefit the second player?
3. Fools.
4. Possible.

I can;t believe they disclosed their build status... what the hell are they building? They are Spain, and start with Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial.

	09-12-2002 05:11									#3
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I agree Theseus. They are foolish to tell us their build queue and not research any military techs.

Godking told me they are building a temple first before they build military units.

How would (#2) benefit the second player...?

	09-12-2002 05:24									#4
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Well, I've never done a PBEM, but won;t the mechanics of the trade be such that the first player will offer to trade world maps, but the second will then have the opportunity to sell / trade the combined world map to all other civs?

(Unless we're talking about trading via screenshots...)

BTW, I like #4. I like the idea of promising a future mutually beneficial act in order to build good will. Much better than what we've been discussing thus far.

Also, just in case they are our first prey... "Thanks for building the Temple, boys!!"

	09-12-2002 05:30									#5
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Whow... are they being naive, or rather a bit to optimistic? Minimap trading I could agree with (maybe), world map trading prolly not (because if they don't intend to build many scouts, we are likely to have a larger map to give then we'll get).
#3 is extremely careless to tell us, they would be toast for our WCs if they are close to us. I could agree though, as long as we get 2 techs for each mil. tech.

#4 is the trickier one: at first it seems a good thing to do, however, if they are aiming for literature, they will very likely start the GL before anyone else. Which would mean that if we agree to #3, we give the GL away. Maybe we can't help it, but if possible I would certainly go for that one, it's one of the most important economical wonders.

Re: build order: a temple would be finished in turn 12 or so, depending on chopping forest, and bonusses. Their first military unit can hardly be a warrior if it would only be built in turn 19 or 20... or they are taking it very slowly military wise. That temple does mean we are going to meet some serious cultural opponents, maybe we should take that into account when planning the build queue.

DeepO

	09-12-2002 05:42									#6
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Don;t forget Spain is REL/COM. I have no clue what they are doing...

Meshelic, ask!!

ROTFLMAO... they'll prolly tell you!
_______________________________

An interesting point about the GL. I've been worried about my SP habits / worldview messing up my thinking here.

With human teams only, is the GL now INSANELY valuable?

	09-12-2002 05:45									#7
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Do not forget, that we do not know their relations with the other teams. Even though it seems that we are THE team to beat, the world does not revolve around us.

They may be able to trade another team for the military techs if we don't go that route (which I don't think we should).
We still do not know if ANY of the other teams have swapped mini-maps, either.

	09-12-2002 05:48									#8
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BTW, are there any rules about all of this non-game politicking and swapping? All this talk of minimap and hemisphere swaps makes me nervous... is it traditional in MP to "play" outside the game environment?

	09-12-2002 05:52									#9
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No. It is not.

	09-12-2002 05:53									#10
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To be honest, all this talk of map trading is insane.

Once more of you have experience with MP, you will understand just how much of an advantage living in an inky void can be.

	09-12-2002 05:55									#11
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Re: the GL: fact is that if you have it, you can go for those techs you value most, and don't need trade nor extortion (or peace settlements) to fill in the blanks. Plus, you can with a clear conscious trade less important techs away to those who don't have it yet, as you already now at least 3 other teams got it. I don't say it is the most important wonder, but if you play in a certain way it would be very close... maybe we don't need it, but we shouldn't give that advantage to another team without at least trying to get it ourselves

DeepO

	09-12-2002 05:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus BTW, are there any rules about all of this non-game politicking and swapping? All this talk of minimap and hemisphere swaps makes me nervous... is it traditional in MP to "play" outside the game environment?

Well there aren't any rules yet. Only an international committee can decide on game rules, and that hasn't happened.

My assumption is that nearly anything is possible, depending on how each team wants to approach things.
For example: Togas (of the RP'ers) stated that he will not hold official talks until they discover writing and can establish embassies, although it's strange because their Ambassador Godking is seeming to go against that ruling with the talk of map trading.

In our case, no one has really come forward to state that they think we should hold off on diplomatic contact until we establish embassies, no alliances until MPP"s are available...etc.

But since this is such a free-form game, it IS possible that we go beyond the Civ3 game itself and trade or make agreements before embassies are available, or other abilities are made available.

The only RULE that I understand is that there will be NO hacking or spying in the other teams forums, or any misconduct that way. That's the only rule I'm aware of.

	09-12-2002 05:59									#13
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Meshelic raises an interesting question though... are we seriously disadvantaged if the other teams trade minimaps?

My answer would be no... although it feels like a "Prisoner's Dilemna" question, it is not. The reality is that our immediate environment is all that counts for a long time.

Again, thanks for jumping in on this, nye.

	09-12-2002 06:00									#14
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither To be honest, all this talk of map trading is insane. Once more of you have experience with MP, you will understand just how much of an advantage living in an inky void can be.

you prefer that we remain isolationists until we actually make ingame contact w/another civ?

I don't wish to give up our maps to anyone, honestly. I agree, it is dangerous as hell. Especially dangerous to any security we have BEFORE we make in-game contact. There is much we can get done w/our civ before all this, we haven't even planted our 2nd city yet!

	09-12-2002 06:01									#15
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Bwah, I consider this 'play outside the game' stuff very interesting, and entertaining. If we only go by civ diplo screens, everything would be so boring, and take way to long to negotiate. I'm certainly in for it, if only for these debates on whether we are going to trust certain teams with this information.

DeepO

	09-12-2002 06:07									#16
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Yes, meshelic. I will be against trading maps, or minimaps for the entire game, until someone can beat us in a war to gain that jewel of information, or we are so weak that we would gain massively by trading (unlikely).

They can try to blunder into us all they want when a war breaks out. We will know the land, we can lay in wait with traps. We can kick their butts.

	09-12-2002 06:09									#17
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Has anyone considered Godking might not be telling the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

	09-12-2002 06:11									#18
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I have considered as such. It may be a test of our aggression.

it doesn't matter however, until we explore more and find our neighbors.

	09-12-2002 06:12									#19
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GOOD!! More paranoia!!

	09-12-2002 06:19									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I just made my response to Godking.

I told him that we are not interested in trading any map, or finding out eachother's locations. We would prefer to find our neighbors first, then start making decisions regarding our foreign policy.

I also mentioned that the Wonder idea is getting some (but not alot of) support, but that he should wait for an official response on that in the next couple of days. Whether it is getting support or not is beside the point, lets see what he may reveal before we communicate again...

	10-12-2002 02:06									#21
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We can't tell if Godking usn't bluffing, but we must treat the possibilty of early map trades seriously. I don't think a paranoid attitude would serve us in the long run. We shouldn't be so skeptic, or rather seem so skeptic, at least so we won't attract unnecesary attention in case we are the only team (or one of the few) that hasn't exvhanged any sort of map info.

I'll probe the GoW consuls on the matter, i'll tell them that we are discussing the prospect of trading general geographical information, sometime into the game (not in 50 turns, but rather in 15-20) after we explore our surroundings. Just so we could see how they view it, and perhaps they'll slip some information.

Meshelic- i suggest you urge all ambassadors to do so as well, just so we could get a clear picture on how they see the matter.