09-12-2002 16:32									#1
	Automating the research slider needed!!! Suffering from ads?

Micromanaging the research slider is extremely tedious. I think civIII should allow you to just choose the number of turns you want the research of a technology done and then automatically lower the costs to the lowest possible for that number of turns.
eg. I keep forgetting to adjust the slider when there is only 1 turn left (sometimes you can move the slider from 100 % to 10 % on the last turn of research).
If there is already such an automation, I sure couldn't find it anywhere.....

	09-12-2002 17:49									#2
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Not to appear too harsh but...

This kind of complaint ranks up there with setting "war" on automatic so the program automatically moves only a minimum amount of your troops (that would statistically beat any opposing army) to an area. Why not just automate EVERYTHING?

Come on, there has to be some sort of thought process and strategy involved.

	09-12-2002 17:54									#3
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Well, IMHO there could be an even better and simpler solution - if the excess research points went into the next research project.

Being able to set the number of turns for a research project doesn't necessarily solve all micromanagement problems:

When you start researching a tech you may find that you can afford to finish it in 8 turns and set that, but new city improvements/growth or other civs discovering the tech may reduce the research time you can afford. In this case you need to check every turn whether you can decrease this time.

Also, it may be the other way around if a city or two goes into civil disorder, the AI must increase your science funding to keep it to 8 turns. If done automatically this may reduce your luxury spending - forcing even more cities into civil disorder, or spend money you needed elsewhere.

	09-12-2002 18:00									#4
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quote: Originally posted by fittstim Not to appear too harsh but...

I think you did

I agree that too much automation will take away some tactical aspects fo the game, but seriously: When you find that you can afford to research a tech in 8 turns by setting the research slider to 90% (an example), then how much "thought process and strategy" is involved in always having to remember to check whether you can decrease science funding the last turn?

	09-12-2002 18:22									#5
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Actually it's not only the last turn that's important.

One should check this EVERY turn.

An easy way to see this is to check what setting the "4 turns" first comes up (which level of research). And then see how long it will take if you lower it by 10%.

E.g. At 40% research it takes 4 turns to research a tech. At 30% research it takes 6 turns. Chances are that you can research at 40% for 2 turns and then lower the slider to 30% for 2 turns.

I don't have any numbers in front of me but I'm fairly sure that this method will actually save you more research (and earn you more gold). Than if you had, according to the example, been able to decrease the level to 20% for only the last turn.

	09-12-2002 19:22									#6
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quote: Originally posted by theNiceOne Well, IMHO there could be an even better and simpler solution - if the excess research points went into the next research project.

They do. The research is tallied up until you reach an advance, then you are notified of the advance, pick your next one to research, and the remainder of the research for that turn is applied to the new advance. I didn't think this was the case, but I saw it happen in the game: I reached an advance (not having moved the slider) and picked the next one. It said it would take 8 turns; when the game finished cycling through all the between turn stuff, I only had 7 turns left to research.

	09-12-2002 19:35									#7
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Hmmm

I want:

-automatic luxury slider
-automatic settler placement
-automatic attack force planning
-automatic tech choise selections
-automatic toilet paper refill machindos
-automatic pizza delivery services
-automatic funeral

NOT!



Research slider automation is not necessary at all IMO...

	09-12-2002 19:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by fittstim Not to appear too harsh but... This kind of complaint ranks up there with setting "war" on automatic so the program automatically moves only a minimum amount of your troops (that would statistically beat any opposing army) to an area. Why not just automate EVERYTHING? Come on, there has to be some sort of thought process and strategy involved.

I never automate more than a worker or two. But hey, give me a break, I want to be able to decide how fast my research should be done but obviously to the lowest costs possible and that should be adjusted automatically. There's nothing strategic about this whatsoever. Correct me if I'm wrong......

	09-12-2002 19:47									#9
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quote: Originally posted by fittstim Actually it's not only the last turn that's important. One should check this EVERY turn. An easy way to see this is to check what setting the "4 turns" first comes up (which level of research). And then see how long it will take if you lower it by 10%. E.g. At 40% research it takes 4 turns to research a tech. At 30% research it takes 6 turns. Chances are that you can research at 40% for 2 turns and then lower the slider to 30% for 2 turns. I don't have any numbers in front of me but I'm fairly sure that this method will actually save you more research (and earn you more gold). Than if you had, according to the example, been able to decrease the level to 20% for only the last turn.

In your example, you would get exactly the same amount of gold if you only adjusted it the last turn. Assume your income was 1000 gold. 40/40/30/30 would give a total of 1400 research points and 2600 gold, which is exactly the same as you get by having it to 40/40/40/20..

To be completely fair, if your research setting is less (in 10% increments) than the number of turns for the research project, then it may be benefical to adjust it before the last turn. Ex: 40/30/30/30/30 is cheaper than 40/40/40/40/10.

Also, if the price drops (when other civs get the tech) or your reserach capacity grows substantially (city grows, unvirsities is built etc.) it may mean that it may pay to adjust it before the last turn.

Generally though, there's very little to gain by checking before the last turn, unless your reserach rate is less than the number of turns you research (i.e. a very low research rate).

	09-12-2002 19:54									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie They do. The research is tallied up until you reach an advance, then you are notified of the advance, pick your next one to research, and the remainder of the research for that turn is applied to the new advance. I didn't think this was the case, but I saw it happen in the game: I reached an advance (not having moved the slider) and picked the next one. It said it would take 8 turns; when the game finished cycling through all the between turn stuff, I only had 7 turns left to research.

No, the remaining tech points are wasted. This has been tested a long time ago (search for it), and can easily be verified. Test it by saving when you only have one turn left to discover tech A at a low rate (say 10%). End your turn, select next tech to research (tech B), set the rate to 50% and see how many turns you need.

Then reload, set the rate to 100%, end the turn and select tech B again. After you set the research rate to 50% you will find that you need exactly the same turns as above - so the additional 90% of research got totally wated.

The reason that your research time fell from 8 to 7 turns was probably that some of your cities grew in size or built libraries/universities.

	09-12-2002 21:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by theNiceOne ... The reason that your research time fell from 8 to 7 turns was probably that some of your cities grew in size or built libraries/universities.

... or because more civs had discovered it, lowering the cost for you.

--
While I would prefer an "automatic" solution (e.g., on last turn the slider automatically optimizes AND you get a pop-up informing you), it boils down to a matter of priorities.

You do NOT have to play the perfectionist. When you forget to adjust the slider and maybe some gold, then obviously it was not that important to you at the time. You were MEANT to experience the game this way.

If you don't choose to take that water-under-the-bridge attitude, then please DO go ahead and grovel in your frustration.

	09-12-2002 22:03									#12
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quote: Originally posted by theNiceOne This has been tested a long time ago....

And thus needs to be tested again with the current code - who's to say Firaxis didn't change it. I'll give it a go if I have the time/energy.

	09-12-2002 23:11									#13
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It's not a bad idea - but governments have to manage their budgets all the time. Considering the complexity of most empirical economies, I don't think just moving a slider around once a turn represents a huge amount of micro-management.

It would be nice to have the slider on the main game window, so you don't have to open the domestic advisor screen every time you want to adjust this value.

	10-12-2002 00:41									#14
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fittsim- Not much thought process to performing the same stupid repetitive task over and over again. (If I wanted that, I'd spend an extra hour or two at work.. :LOL: )

Jaybe- I'm fairly sure I wasn't "supposed" to experience the game this way. The interviews that I've seen with Sid outline his philosphy of keeping only the INTERESTING choices. It's a shame his philosophy didn't get translated to the game better...

theNiceOne- I agree 100%. I'd bet good money that a quick fix would take approximately 3 minutes to code. (Do one extra calc as you gain a tech to set current research points to current research points - tech cost (instead of zero...)

FNBrown- Sure, it's not a huge amount of micromanagement, it's more like a small amount of very repetitive micromanagement that could have been coded out with minimal effort on their part. I don't really agree with your budget analogy. As a leader, I shouldn't have to be bothered with grade school optimization problems. For that matter, if I were president in the CIV 3 universe, I'd make DARN SURE to hire a science advisor who understood the concept of arbitrage. (Zero cost gains) and could adjust the science rate accordingly. Why should I have to go and teach my science advisor how to count?

Sorry if I come across as cranky. This one issue hacks me off every time I think about it. Not so much for how annoying it is, but rather how it illustrates how half-***ed the whole implementation of Sid's philosophy really was with civ3..... (the game has nice graphics though.... )

	10-12-2002 00:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by FNBrown It would be nice to have the slider on the main game window, so you don't have to open the domestic advisor screen every time you want to adjust this value.

NOW that's a great idea ! It doesn't seem impossible to implement as well. We really should suggest this to Firaxis

	10-12-2002 01:16									#16
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Keeping control of the micromanagement will differ a skilled player from a fairly good one in most strategy games, both realtime and turn-based. As long as the AI is more stupid than a human, taking care of the micromanagement instead of automating will improve the result for a skilled player.

But the issue of adjusting the science slider in Civ feels almost like a bug exploit IMO, even if I'm aware that it works that way on intention.

	10-12-2002 01:46									#17
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I dont think for everyone an automatic slider would be any good. I know for myself I have no problem remembering to monitor it from turn to turn, and I believe the more skilled players will be sliding it so you may be making +50 one turn and -250 the next. I hardly ever have it set so that I make the minimum amount of money and maximum tech, like I said, sometimes I losing a lot of gold per turn just so I can research the tech a little faster. Altho you have a point, there could be a little button that says 'automate slider' and it will take care of that last turn for you...

	10-12-2002 02:46									#18
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Having come from CtP where you just set the percentage of wealth going into science and leave it (with the excess going into the next advance) I like the Civ3 way. Now I get to choose how long researching a tech takes and how much it costs me. Yes it is a bit tedious adjusting the slider at the start and end of each tech but it just becomes habit.

What I really like is the feeling of losing 20GP per turn for six or seven turns to research an industrial age tech and then turning the slider down with one turn to go and making 300GP and using it to upgrade some units. That feels like getting something out of the game because you put something in!

	10-12-2002 03:02									#19
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Really not needed I say. By the time it gets to where monitoring it closely is actually needed (Industrial/Modern) ages you're doing alot per turn anyway. So its not that difficult to just check it every other turn or so.

	10-12-2002 04:39									#20
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This is one change I disliked from civ2 for civ3. In civ2 any extra beakers would not be wasted (except for the extra beakers in the city which contributed the last beakers needed for researcgh an advance, IIRC). Now all exceess beakers are wasted. I think this changed has something to do with the fact that the games sets a mininum number of turns per an advance. Even is you tweak the editor, it is impossible to research more than 1 tech a turn, which was possible is civ2.

	10-12-2002 09:05									#21
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I think both ways are fine. In civ2, I could get 2 future techs in one turn when I was milking the score. Now I have less micromanagement with the research seeing as how it will take x amount of turns. I think it also adds more balance to the game that way.

	10-12-2002 09:19									#22
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Some of the problems in this area is the poor implementation of diminishing returns. I like civ3, and usually mentally defend the game when people complain, but this is one place where they got it wrong. They should have used a true diminishing returns model instead of a flat cap. It would have been more intuitive for the player.

	10-12-2002 10:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Brizey Some of the problems in this area is the poor implementation of diminishing returns. I like civ3, and usually mentally defend the game when people complain, but this is one place where they got it wrong. They should have used a true diminishing returns model instead of a flat cap. It would have been more intuitive for the player.

Good one. I've thought of about 75 problems and disappointments with Civ 3, especially compared to Civ 2, but I hadn't thought of that one.


BTW, Firaxis is never giving you any of this, you know. With the exception of one more patch for PTW, they are done.

	10-12-2002 12:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Gyromancer fittsim- Not much thought process to performing the same stupid repetitive task over and over again. (If I wanted that, I'd spend an extra hour or two at work.. :LOL: )

Ha ha. That's the funniest response I've ever saw on this forum. Performing the same task over and over. Hoo hoo. Yeah, like moving a mouse around and point to squares to move your units. Yup, that only happens maybe once per game!?!

Or maybe building improvements?!? Yup, that's not something that happens over and over and over.

Or maybe attacking those barbarians?!? Yuck, yuck. Nope, that just doesn't happen more than once in a game!

OK enough pointing out the painfully obvious. The fact is that this game revolves aroung doing the same freakin' thing OVER and OVER and OVER.

	10-12-2002 21:10									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

Coracle:

I think civ is about the only 4X game that does not use diminishing returns when alocating resources. And the sad thing is that it could be so much easier and explicit. The research system in civ3 is needlessly secretive. We all know there is a simple formula for the number of beakers to produce a new tech, yet the GUI does not provide us this number. Here is how it should work:

-The GUI displays the number of beakers required to reach the next tech.

-For a given commerce resource allocation, the number of beakers produced per turn is displayed.

-An ESTIMATION of the number of turns to produce the next tech is displayed. This is an estimation beacuse the number of beakers produced can vary from turn to turn. Also, the number of beakers required can change as other civilizations discover the tech.

-The number of beakers produced is based on a diminishing returns model. The more extreme the unbalance between science and treasury, the less the total commerce production is.

This model would be simple, direct and predictable. I never understood why they chose to make the number of beakers required to reach the next tech a hidden quantity like it was some big secret.

	10-12-2002 23:21									#26
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Brizey, I would bet it's a big secret because it is
THE Key to Winning The Game.

You wouldn't want to make the game any EASIER, now would you? ( wink, wink, just kidding, etc.)

(Also, it is possible that they couldn't figure out a GUI place to put it without redesigning either the F1 or F6 screens).

	11-12-2002 00:09									#27
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But the high/low caps are such a primitive way to conceal it. You can estimate it with a little bit of algebra, and tighten the tolerance of your estimation by experimenting with the slider.