09-12-2002 18:15									#1
	Boardgame GO? Suffering from ads?

I have been poking at this for a few months, after an abortive try a few years ago. I got a decent windows version (igowin), and every time I play I get totally plastered.

this game fascinates me since it is simpler and deeper than chess at the same time, sort of like othello on steroids. its age may make it one of the oldest turned based games, period.

on an interesting note for those who have read/are reading the Wheel Of Time series, I'm almost certain that when they talk about the game of stones that Thom Merrilin enjoys, they're talking about GO. they also say that those who are talnted at stones are talented at Daes Daemar. anywayy...

anyone else played GO? anyone any good at it? because of my incredible suckiness at this (computer plasters me at easiest difficulty time after time) I checked out a GO for beginners guide at the library.

so tell if you like it

	09-12-2002 18:40									#2
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Is that similar to the game you can play with a pen and paper and a home made grid?

	09-12-2002 22:16									#3
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Go is fascinating to me, because computers suck so bad at it (sorry FB ). I am referring of course to the higher levels of the game, where it turns out the lack of rules for good play mean computers cannot get close to the top players.

	10-12-2002 16:59									#4
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There are no rules if you talk about something like algorithms that you can follow. Surely however there are rules in the sense of guidelines. There are a bunch of do's and don'ts. Things like you should go after the corners, then the edges, and finally the centre.

It is fascinating because of the almost infinite number of combinations you can have.

	10-12-2002 18:39									#5
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Sure, but what is good is so situation dependent at go that computers suck compared to other games.........whereas a more complex game like chess is more amenable to computer play, because in short term calculations the computer is king.

	10-12-2002 18:48									#6
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Yes GO is a great game - I believe that it is the game with the largest literature in the world - MUCH more than chess - of course most of the literature is in Chinese & Japanese.

I learned it as an undergraduate - from a national master - somewhat humbling, but have very few chances to play since those halcyon days so my skills are now somewhat (read completely) atrophied, I can recommend the text Go & GoMoku by Laskar (the chess master) as a decent introduction (if it still be in print) - I recall finding this one of the more accessible texts as many of the oriental texts (in translation of course) dwell too heavily upon the philosophy and not sufficiently upon the mechanics for my taste.

SG[1]

	10-12-2002 18:48									#7
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Presumably when you have humans playing they come up with strategies that can be emulated by an AI. Regardless of the number of possible moves available a computer can be given intuition akin to that of a human.

	11-12-2002 14:44									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits I learned it as an undergraduate - from a national master - somewhat humbling, but have very few chances to play since those halcyon days so my skills are now somewhat (read completely) atrophied, I can recommend the text Go & GoMoku by Laskar (the chess master) as a decent introduction (if it still be in print) - I recall finding this one of the more accessible texts as many of the oriental texts (in translation of course) dwell too heavily upon the philosophy and not sufficiently upon the mechanics for my taste.

Gomoku is a completely different game though. You use the same board and stones, but the rules are entirely different. There is no capture, and the first person who gets five stones in a row wins.

It still is fun game, and much more interesting than reversi.

	11-12-2002 14:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Presumably when you have humans playing they come up with strategies that can be emulated by an AI. Regardless of the number of possible moves available a computer can be given intuition akin to that of a human.

In theory yes, but computers totally suck at strategic levels, which is what Go is. Unlike chess which is purely tactical, the best human players have a hard time telling you how they evaluate board positions. If you read some of the literature it keeps using words such as "feel" and "gut feeling." In other words you are supposed to look at the entire board and let your subconsciousness to do the work. Sometimes there are look ahead analyses, but mostly limited to (comparatively speaking) tactical situations, not when you put down a stone in the middle of nowhere and have it exert influence 30, 40 moves later.

	12-12-2002 09:36									#10
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not sure if i have played go....can someone describe it to me in more detail, ie the objective and how to achieve it....seems to me i have tried this but as i rack my brain, i can't seem to recall

	12-12-2002 11:20									#11
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The board is a grid. One play has white stones, the other black.

The players alternate putting their stones down on the intersections on the grid and try to surround the other players stones.

	13-12-2002 08:20									#12
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That's part of it, the main objective is to surround as much "territory" as possible.

	14-12-2002 20:46									#13
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I'm reading "Go for beginners" by Iwamoto. it seems to be decent at explaining the rules and such for us complete novices.

here's an interesting quote "When the philosopher Hsuan-Tzu lay dying, he remarked to the people around hime that if heaven would see fit to grant him another one hundred years of life, he would spend fifty of them playing Go. To a dedicate player, this statement shows a certain lack of enthusiasm. but it should be considered that the people around him were non players, and he didn't want them to think he had completely flipped out."

I am enjoying the exercises, and am thinking of getting myself a Go board so I can see the board situation more clearly.

	15-12-2002 00:37									#14
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when you surround, do you mean completely...is there a go website on the web i could look at...

i don't think i have played this, but the strategy seems like chinese checkers, but with surrrounding instead of travelling???

	15-12-2002 00:41									#15
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It's othello on steroids.

	15-12-2002 01:03									#16
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i played othello....good game !!

	15-12-2002 01:09									#17
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Yeah I got it for christmas a few years back......it is a deceptively deep game. There is a world championship, bags of opening theory, and the best human is still (just) on top of his silicon brother.

And 'go' has even more finesse.

	15-12-2002 01:34									#18
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humans can always outthink machines...though we are subject to poor decisions..

	15-12-2002 06:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Father Beast I am enjoying the exercises, and am thinking of getting myself a Go board so I can see the board situation more clearly.

Good idea. That way you can follow the more advanced examples easier.

	15-12-2002 06:32									#20
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quote: Originally posted by War4ever when you surround, do you mean completely...is there a go website on the web i could look at...

Yes, completely. Since Go is played on a grid, you need 4 stones to surround one enemy stone. Interestingly, you need only 6 to surround 2, and 8 to surround 3 (if they are in a straight line).

Here's Google's web directory on Go

	16-12-2002 19:07									#21
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yup, othello on steroids would be a good description. the main differences being the board is empty when you start, you can place a piece anywhere instead of having to be next to existing pieces, you surround instead of straight line capture, and the captured pieces are removed instead of converted.

I'm getting the hang of this a lot better now that I'm reading the book straight through instead of skipping around. I played a game against igowin and actually held some territory, although I still lost 50 - 31 (on a 9x9 grid).

I may try the tutorial included. Igowin has something called the "way to Go", while turboGo for windows has a joseki tutor. I think one of those games had something that said the game had a kyu rating on the highest difficulty.

	16-12-2002 19:16									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Father Beast yup, othello on steroids would be a good description.

Thanks. I was quite proud of it myself.

	17-12-2002 09:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Father Beast I'm getting the hang of this a lot better now that I'm reading the book straight through instead of skipping around. I played a game against igowin and actually held some territory, although I still lost 50 - 31 (on a 9x9 grid).

Remember, always go for the corners first.

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast I may try the tutorial included. Igowin has something called the "way to Go", while turboGo for windows has a joseki tutor. I think one of those games had something that said the game had a kyu rating on the highest difficulty.

You don't need to remember joseki now, just brush up your play first. Joseki is sort of like chess openings, most beginners don't memorise them.

	17-12-2002 12:18									#24
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I played "Go" back in college and I still own the board but I never really got too deep into the whole game despite the fascination. The reason was that nobody around me at the time wanted to play with a board game ! I'll be checking "Go" on the net for thenext few hours now to refresh my memories .

So long...

	17-12-2002 22:01									#25
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quote: Remember, always go for the corners first.

What does this mean, exactly? Does this mean you should place your first stones close to the corners? Or do you place your stones in the center and quickly push out to the corners? I don't understand...

I downloaded a Go computer game last night and am learning the game right now, so any advice would be appreciated. The computer is destroying me on the easiest setting.

	17-12-2002 22:09									#26
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I thought go for the corners first was the tactic in Othello

	17-12-2002 22:49									#27
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The Othello 'tactic' is to prevent your opponent being able to get a corner.

	18-12-2002 08:13									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Remember, always go for the corners first. What does this mean, exactly? Does this mean you should place your first stones close to the corners? Or do you place your stones in the center and quickly push out to the corners? I don't understand...

You should put your first stones close to the corners. Because of the properties of the corners, it is much easier to become "alive" near the corners. A block of stones is considered alive when it contains two "eyes," or can form two eyes dispite your opponents best efforts.

Also, since the object of the game is to capture territories, corners are best for that. To encircle a 4x4 grid, you only need 4 stones at a corner, 6 stones at an edge, but 8 out in the centre. So you don't ever start in the centre, bad idea.

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I downloaded a Go computer game last night and am learning the game right now, so any advice would be appreciated. The computer is destroying me on the easiest setting.

Which one?

	18-12-2002 08:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The Othello 'tactic' is to prevent your opponent being able to get a corner.

Or just grab them yourself.

	18-12-2002 10:12									#30
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quote: Which one?

Goban for MacOS X.

It's pretty nice, although I can't play the capture game instead of full-on Go. It'd probably be easier to learn the basics playing the capture game, but oh well...