09-12-2002 21:12									#1
	What to do with our worker part 2 Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What can we do with our worker ?
I've just ran a simulation which proves we'll have our settler one turn after Legopolis grows to size 3, if we use the shield grassland and mine it.

In my simulation, whether we mine or road first, the settler is produced at turn 15 anyways (it's produced at turn 16 if we don't mine). But roading our shielded grassland first will hasten research.

The math is:

quote: 4000 BC : Foundation of Legopolis, worker sent SW. Growth in 7 turns. Bronze in 18 turns. 3950 BC : 2 shields in Legopolis, worker starts roading. Growth in 6 turns, bronze in 17 turns 3900 BC : 4 shields in Legopolis, growth in 5 turns, bronze in 16 turns. 3850 BC : worker starts mining. 4 shields in Legopolis, growth in 4 turns, bronze in 12 turns. 3800 BC : 8 shields. 3 turns to growth. Bronze in 11 turns. 3750 BC : Warrior built. 2 turns to growth. Bronze in 10 turns. (that's what we've done until now) Now, the results of my simulation : 3700 BC : worker done mining. Sent N. 3 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 1 turn. Bronze in 9 turns. 3650 BC : worker starts roading. 7 shields in Legopolis. Legopolis pop 2. Growth in 7 turns. Science slider set to 100%. Bronze in 7 turns. 3600 BC : warrior ready. Starting settler. Growth in 6 turns. Bronze in 6 turns. 3550 BC : done roading. started mining. 4 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 5 turns. Bronze in 4 turns. 3500 BC : 8 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 4 turns. Bronze in 3 turns. Borders expand. 3450 BC : 12 shields. Growth in 3 turns. Bronze in 2 turns. 3400 BC : done mining. 17 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 2 turns. Bronze next turn. 3350 BC 22 shields in Legopolis. Growth next turn. Bronze discovered 3300 BC Legopolis pop 3. Works the new shield grassland. 28 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 7 turns. 3250 BC Settler ready. Legopolis grows to size 2 in 6 turns.

If we mine the tile first, we'll discover Bronze in 3300 BC rather than 3350. And I don't want any turn to be wasted.

As a conclusion, I say we road first, and mine after

Edit : bolded the conclusion so that everyone knows what the post was about

	09-12-2002 21:26									#2
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Agreed. Road the bonus grassland first, then mine it.

Nice analysis, BTW, we could certainly use more of these.

	09-12-2002 21:28									#3
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It took approx one hour to make the map in the editor + running the simulation correctly (I always forgot one detail or another) + writing the results down
Don't expect to see too many of them

	09-12-2002 23:52									#4
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Well, you certainly can't argue with the facts! Road, followed by mining seems the clear solution.

Yes, I need to whip up a simulator for our lands as well, that way you won't have to run them all!

	10-12-2002 00:08									#5
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Spiffor, are you sure you don't want to be Master Builder?

	10-12-2002 00:12									#6
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Tiberius : yes I'm sure. I don't have PtW yet, and a terrible fear occured to me recently : my UK version of PtW (which should arrive soon) could not work with my US version of Civ3.
Plus, I had some time this weekend, but I fear it won't last.

	10-12-2002 06:10									#7
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Well, to join in the fun of detailed calculation, I whipped myself up a "Legopolis Simulator" to try out some options. If we stick to the plan of warrior, warrior, settler, while at the same time roading then mining , we get exactly what Spiffor already showed us . Beyond that, though, we have our first Merc available to build immediately upon completion of the settler.

With Legopolis at size 1, the Merc takes 10 turns. However, as growth will occur to size 2 in 6 turns, and the bonus grassland can be worked again, the actual build time ends up being 8 turns. Following that, however, the next one will take 6 (30 shields at 6 shields/turn.). Just thought I'd share that info.

	10-12-2002 06:30									#8
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Another build possibility: Build 3rd warrior instead of settler, then build settler. That warrior can be used as a temporary garrison in Legopolis, or perhaps investigate a little to the south (on the gold mountain). Then when the settler is done, accompany the settler to the new location and perhaps become its garrison.

4000 BC : Foundation of Legopolis, worker sent SW. Growth in 7 turns. Bronze in 18 turns.
3950 BC : 2 shields in Legopolis, worker starts roading. Growth in 6 turns, bronze in 17 turns
3900 BC : 4 shields in Legopolis, growth in 5 turns, bronze in 16 turns.
3850 BC : worker starts mining. 4 shields in Legopolis, growth in 4 turns, bronze in 12 turns.
3800 BC : 8 shields. 3 turns to growth. Bronze in 11 turns.
3750 BC : Warrior built. 2 turns to growth. Bronze in 10 turns. (that's what we've done until now)

And in the alternative warrior instead of settler simulation : (Modified Spiffor's calculations instead of running a simulator - might do that later when I can find my simulator)

3700 BC : worker done mining. Sent N. 3 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 1 turn. Bronze in 9 turns.
3650 BC : worker starts roading. 7 shields in Legopolis. Legopolis pop 2. Growth in 7 turns. Science slider set to 100%. Bronze in 7 turns.
3600 BC : warrior ready. Starting 3rd warrior. Growth in 6 turns. Bronze in 6 turns.
3550 BC : done roading. started mining. 4 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 5 turns. Bronze in 4 turns.
3500 BC : 8 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 4 turns. Bronze in 3 turns. Borders expand.
3450 BC : 3rd warrior ready. Start settler. Growth in 3 turns. Bronze in 2 turns.
3400 BC : done mining. 5 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 2 turns. Bronze next turn.
3350 BC 10 shields in Legopolis. Growth next turn. Bronze discovered
3300 BC Legopolis pop 3. Works the new shield grassland. 16 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 7 turns.
3250 BC 22 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 6 turns.
3200 BC 28 shields in Legopolis. Growth in 5 turns.
3150 BC Settler produced. Legopolis grows to 2 in 4 turns. (4 shields wasted like in the other scenario)

Result: we build the settler 2 turns later. That might give our worker the time to build a road part way between Legopolis and the new city site.

We would also have less time (4 turns vs 6) to spend again at size 1.

By the way, I am not arguing for one alternative over another in this case. Just presenting more options for us to consider.

	10-12-2002 06:46									#9
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I would definitely go for the third warrior and only then for the settler. With just two warriors, it would be difficult to protect the settler (can you imagine losing him? ). Also, as correctly pointed out by Sharpe, with three warriors and one settler, we would later spend less time on pop 1 in Legopolis.

Actually, I will try to whip myself into some spreadsheeting, too. I would like to know what would happen, should we build a Merc instead of the third warrior...

	10-12-2002 07:04									#10
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Its a guess based on the figures already presented. But I think the settler would be built in 3000 bc (5 turns later than WWS (warrior-warrior-settler) build, 3 turns later than WWWS build).

However, Legoland would probably grow back to 2 in 1 turn only.

A question for all alternatives is how long would it take to produce the next settler in Legoland?

With WWS, we would need to build a defensive unit in Legoland afterward before another settler.

With WWWS, we might be able to use a warrior as a temporary defensive unit, and immediately build another settler, but admittedly a warrior is no where near as good as a Numidian.

With WWNS, we can use the Numidian as the defensive unit and immediately start building another settler.

Another realistic question is: how long will it take to find a suitable city site. I would imagine that situation would push us into choosing one of these scenarios over another.

My suggestion is that if possible we run scenarios leading up to the building of a 2nd settler in Legopolis for each of these scenarios (and any others that arise).

	10-12-2002 12:35									#11
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With all the talk about importance of scouting, defensiveness and fear of other civs, I am deeply surprised about what I am reading in this thread.

My opportunistic and minimal scouting approach would be to build 2 warriors for scouting, 1 unit (warrior or merc) for defense of the capitol, and 2 warriors or 1 merc for escort. Then the settler.

I don't even want to get started about my defensive/extensive scouting approach.

Or am I just too tired? Are you guys not saying to build a settler while we have 2 or 3 warriors? Who will scout? Who will defend the capital? I must be missing something...

Last edited by delmar on 10-12-2002 at 12:44

	10-12-2002 12:37									#12
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Yeah, and to reply to the original question: build a road.

	11-12-2002 07:34									#13
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Having minimal defense for both city and settler is a gamble. But remember that the sooner we get a second city up and running, the sooner we get a new growth & production settler. (Edit: center, rather.)

REXing may not be a good long-term strategy in MP, but I think we should pump out the first two or three cities ASAP. Short of someone incredibly close ready to warrior rush, I doubt it'll be a problem. And with the inhospitable terrain around us, I doubt we're close to anyone.

	11-12-2002 07:59									#14
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I can see what we could win by such a gamble. I was specifically amazed by the fact that I seem to be a pretty defensive player, compared to the average, after all.

I keep hearing these horror stories about how warmongers preveal in MP games so ever since I was thinking about how I could be more cautious to avoid such a fiasco. Now I tend to think that my basic approach is probably safe enough (maybe too much so).

Btw, I think we are discussing this topic (what to build in the future) on the Master Builder Poll thread.