11-12-2002 02:04									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks, Dave, and I hear what you're saying -- I suspect there are reasons that are not being shared.

I just hope that wait doesn't alienate too many potential customers in the process, because it IS a fun game to play. Up until MOO3, I'd go back to MOO2 or MoM from time to time when I needed a strategy fix. After MOO3, I won't have to except when an especially nostalgic streak kicks in.

	11-12-2002 05:58									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MasterDave It just does not make sense to miss out on Xmas sales for the sake of a single "elusive" bug. Executives of a game company disappointing fans and missing out on real sales to improve some artificial bottom line does, unfortunately, make all the sense in the world.

I was thinking about this and would hazard a guess that overall sales probably won't be affected that severely by the delay.
Consider the portion of sales attributed to long-time fans and those who pick it up on the name basis. Similarly wrt Civ3. The large majority of such will buy it, pretty much as soon as its out - regardless of whether its out in the pre-Xmas boom or not.
Additionally, 4 Jan will be just about the time people are getting sick of all of the buggy, dysfunctional games they got for Xmas (Note: I didn't mention Ptw here ) and are returning in droves - only to gape in awe at the shiny new Moo3 boxes lining the shelves.
This is surely much larger than the number of casual Xmas shoppers who would have otherwise just picked up a copy of whatever was available - including Moo3.

	11-12-2002 06:27									#33
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Rumor i heard is that its a late game save bug. And that if affects both multiplayer and singleplayer. It probably wouldn't be good for the game if the release version was unfinishable. *cough* black and white *cough cough*

Last edited by Kc7mxo on 22-12-2002 at 09:30

	11-12-2002 08:24									#34
	Remove this text

That's cool if they're holding back for a SP crash fix, but I could give a crap about MP. I don't have the coveted fast connection and none of my friends will play a game like this with me.

I'm not happy with holding the game strictly on MP but would understand if they want to make it work as I'm sure there are those out there dying to play it. Woe to IG if conclusive evidence comes out that holding this game is to give breathing room to PTW or for some accounting gimmick...

	11-12-2002 11:12									#35
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I don't believe a pre-Christmas release would help a title like this much as opposed to a January release. Ravagon covered the reasons pretty well.

I'm sick of the "release now and worry about making it playable later" approach that most game releases seem to follow, but reading Xentax's review of his beta-version, it doesn't seem that this is the reason for the delay. Besides, we all know that infogreed doesn't let a little thing like product quality interfere with their marketting plan. While this delay is strange considering, I can only hope that QS take this extra time and polish the game well.

	11-12-2002 11:34									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

*sigh* if only we were blizzard fans we would be able to take the waiting so much easier. that or we would die from a nervous breakdown from all the waiting

	11-12-2002 13:57									#37
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I already died of nervous exhaustion from the waiting. I'm hoping to be feeling better come January, or February or March...

(My girlfriend has started to call me Moo-this is TRUE)

	11-12-2002 15:56									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Xentax If it was a situation where it would *auto* patch, I'd agree (e.g. Battle.Net). But I don't think "internet" play (Gamespy Arcade) would require or even support auto-patching, so they'd be worried that people wouldn't patch. Plus, people using LAN or direct TCP/IP for MP would be harder to direct to a patch...

Gamespy does prompt when you need to upgrade to join a server, so I suppose this is a kind of auto update feature.

	11-12-2002 16:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 OK, all I'm going to say is: This game looks OK, and I'm planning on getting it.....however I'm questioning whether i"ll have the money. If it were to come out before Christmas I would definately get it, however all my funds will be drained on other things...... So unfortunately I'm gonna skip out on this title in order to get something more immediate in pleasure.

Just return the sweater that Grandma gets ya, and use that money for Moo3. If Grandma has a problem with that, just ware one of the sweaters that she gave you on a previous Christmas. She won’t know the difference.

	11-12-2002 20:19									#40
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Pure and simple speculation:
1. IG is BIG. They have a lot of title for xmas and they want to sell a bucketload of shiny braindead FPS-es and similar titles. Those titles are mostly for teens and teens can get it for xmas like a present.
2. MOO3 for adults. IG knows adults can buy this game in january (or any part of the year BTW).
3. To get shelf-space in january much easier than in december. Its also easier to get more attention for a TBS game from game magazines / gamer sites.

So even they already find the bug or not IMHO we dont see this game before january. But I think in longer term this will help MOO3 to get enough attention what it deserve.

	11-12-2002 20:38									#41
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i had subsribed on some IG mailing list and i got a mail yesterday from them advertising some 20 games. the list included 1-2 games that i had heard off. what i'm geting at? moo3 is a small picture of what IG is publishing so that they can play financial games with it's release....

	11-12-2002 21:08									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i had subsribed on some IG mailing list and i got a mail yesterday from them advertising some 20 games. the list included 1-2 games that i had heard off. what i'm geting at? moo3 is a small picture of what IG is publishing so that they can play financial games with it's release....

Yeah well this doesn't solve the question about if the game is played with a ball or a snake that's gonna strangle you...
My conclusion: all what had to be said on the subject is probably said... we'll see and hope it doesn't impact too much MOO3 and MOM2...

	12-12-2002 05:15									#43
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so what if they have 20 other games? theirs always room for jello

	12-12-2002 17:01									#44
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by War of Art I already died of nervous exhaustion from the waiting. I'm hoping to be feeling better come January, or February or March...

Careful, people have died due to computer games

	16-12-2002 08:23									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey u also gotta realise that Chantz said there was a crash bug i think in the later stages of the sp and mp game so thats probably why they delaying the whole thing.

	16-12-2002 08:31									#46
	Suffering from ads?

You're right, thats the main reason now

	16-12-2002 09:15									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

IIRC, Civ 3 was released some time in April or March or so, and it didn't hurt sales too much. Same goes for, oh, say, Warcraft 3. Or Diablo 2. Or The Sims.

Computer games like this aren't the same kind of thing like toys are. Computer games like Moo3 aren't being marketed at the toy/console market, and they're not as likely to be gifts for the holidays.

Marketing suicide? Doubtful. Moo fans will buy this game when it comes out, and that will very likely be the majority of the sales unless it becomes an instant classic.

About the only loss is that IG spent a lot of money doing advertising on a game that isn't going to come out for a while, and that can be spendy.

	16-12-2002 10:12									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I don't believe a pre-Christmas release would help a title like this much as opposed to a January release. Ravagon covered the reasons pretty well.

I will have to disagree with that. After all, Christmas is a big buying season - why do you think they arrange movies like that? - and there are more buyers than just "serious" gamers.

If you miss the Xmas season, you will miss all the sales of Xmas gifts. Auntie Mary was going to buy MoO 3 for Little Johnny for Xmas because he wanted it, but since Auntie Mary couldn't find the game in the stores, Little Johnny reluctantly went for some other game. Then next Christmas Little Johnny will want the next hot game.

Then you have gamers like T5K and my SO. My SO has been playing SMACX for years, and she's now looking for a new strategy game for her Xmas vacation. MoO 3 would be a nice fit, but if she couldn't find it when we do our shopping this Friday, she'll get something else.

	16-12-2002 10:13									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i had subsribed on some IG mailing list and i got a mail yesterday from them advertising some 20 games. the list included 1-2 games that i had heard off. what i'm geting at? moo3 is a small picture of what IG is publishing so that they can play financial games with it's release....

Yeah, but do they have any 4X games on the list? What about strategy games?

	16-12-2002 11:00									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Urban Ranger, you made my point for me. Your SO was going to play Moo3 over X-mas. Is she not going to when it does eventually come out?

Is little Johnny going to buy this game at all? Would he ever request it? It's about demographics, and the 12-15 year old doesn't play this sort of game nearly as much as the 25-40 year old does - and they're the ones that would get 'hurt'.

I'll put it another way - Moo3, like Civ3, isn't going to be the 'hot game'. That's easy to say - it's the Sims, hands down. Or Vice City. Moo3 is a niche market, and that niche will buy it any time of the year.

I'm not saying that there won't be as many sales as there would be had it been released, but the overall sales are very likely to be unaffected in any significant way, and here's the important thing, assuming that the product is good. If Moo3 was crap, a lot of copies would get sold in the Xmas rush despite the fact that it simply wasn't fun.

I don't decry that one bit.

	16-12-2002 11:46									#51
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I will have to disagree with that. After all, Christmas is a big buying season - why do you think they arrange movies like that? - and there are more buyers than just "serious" gamers.

Movies are arranged like that to take advantage of a large number of people having large blocks of free time to spend. Games don't require this. You can play a game for half an hour before having to go pick up the kids for instance, whereas you would not be able to go to the movies for half an hour. Computer games are a different beast.

People who aren't "serious" gamers are more likely to be attracted to games such as the Sims, Doom 3, GTA, or other such hot games. Not to say that some would not buy MoO3 were it available before Christmas, but the number is likely to be small compared to "serious" gamers.

Those who want the game will still be interested in it in a months time, and most will also be able to afford it then. For those who need to rely on gifting - they do have birthdays, and lets face it, there aren't that many decent strategy games coming out each year. After all, Civ 3 is still selling well over a year after its initial release, why not MoO3?

	16-12-2002 12:28									#52
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I suspect that some games are some what immune from the xmas thing, such as any thing by Blizzard and some highly sought after shooters and the like.
Others could miss sales that are not going to be coming back, like Johnny.
Mom knows Johnny like space games and see Moo3 and gets it. Whoops Moo3 is not out for xmas and she never sees it. She is not going to see games in places see will during xmas and in fact is not going to go to the EB store at any other time but xmas. Johnny does not ask for Moo3 when it comes out as it is not a must have for him and he has no money of his own that he is going to spent on it. No impulse buying, that is the missing ingredient. Non gamers that pick up games in EB or CompUsa or even Best Buys that would normally never look for them. I have no clue as to what this is worth, but it must be something significant as so many compaines are shooting to make this time frame, it can't be without a reason. Some sales must be lost never to return.

	16-12-2002 14:54									#53
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quote: Originally posted by kalbear Urban Ranger, you made my point for me. Your SO was going to play Moo3 over X-mas. Is she not going to when it does eventually come out?

Beats me She has been playing SMACX and that's for a few years. Granted, she's quite busy and don't get to play frequently or for long stretches of time. MoO 3 is not essential but a nice change of pace for her. If she couldn't find it, no big loss, she'll just see what she can get her hands on.

quote: Originally posted by kalbear Is little Johnny going to buy this game at all? Would he ever request it? It's about demographics, and the 12-15 year old doesn't play this sort of game nearly as much as the 25-40 year old does - and they're the ones that would get 'hurt'.

When I said "Little" I was using the term loosely - I was referring to a college kid. Sorry for any confusion thus caused. Again, non-diehard fans would just grab something else that strike their fancy, which will be bad for Quicksilver.

quote: Originally posted by kalbear I'm not saying that there won't be as many sales as there would be had it been released, but the overall sales are very likely to be unaffected in any significant way, and here's the important thing, assuming that the product is good. If Moo3 was crap, a lot of copies would get sold in the Xmas rush despite the fact that it simply wasn't fun.

I am not that sure. For me, I gave up on waiting, dispite the fact that I am a great big MoO fan. I get the impression that QS can't pull their acts together, so it is casting serious doubts on the quality of MoO 3. Sure, my impression can be completely unfounded, but the damage has been done.

	19-12-2002 08:38									#54
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I predicted these problems a long time ago with my critiques of QS program management. UR is just jumping on my bandwagon.

I told you so. I told you so.

	19-12-2002 18:07									#55
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All your "impressions" can actually be founded , that's possible, but I personally keep my final judgement of the product after its release. As usual there's too much scepticism in the gaming forums; I care much more on how shall look the 800x600 graphics engine on a 21'' monitor than the management process...that's QS and IG'S own affair if they invest double the budget or the time alloted for MoO3 ( 3 years instead of 2, 2 and half)....

	19-12-2002 23:55									#56
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: I told you so. I told you so.

Heh heh. Nice and humble, eh GP?

	21-12-2002 10:28									#57
	Got spare money?

Personally I think its more a difference in software developers. Quicksilver wants to produce a working product and actually cares about their reputation and future productivity. Firaxis just throws an unfinishable peice of code in a box and waits to see if enough people complain to force them to patch it.

I hope Quicksilver gets to do Civ 4.

	21-12-2002 17:32									#58
	Remove this text

While there seems to be some difference in mindset between QS and Firaxis for sure, this is really the publishers choice. Sales of PTW must be diappointing... but that was to be expected. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Any upcoming Firaxis product will have a *lot* to prove before I spend cash on it. If QS managed to make IG see this somehow, they deserve kudos for that.

Even if they badly mismanaged their own development process.

	23-12-2002 22:36									#59
	IG/QS Needed Christmas Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

They REALLY needed Christmas because the original mandate from mgt. was "it needs to be played on older machines." Hence the 800x600 resolution and the low system specs.

Not all, but many, hardcore gamers have systems that far exceed the min. requirements for this game.

Part of the target market for this game is the casual gamer, you know, the ones that only buy a couple of games a year and mostly at CHRISTMAS. HELLO!!!

I have to agree with those that say "forget MP, give us SP now!"

oh, well...

	23-12-2002 23:09									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

it's not just MP that's not ready.

and an early january release isn't as bad as you would think, so many xmas gifts these days are gift certificates, so as long as Moo3 is on the shelves by about January 5th, it won't be as bad. still not as good as a late november release, but better than nothing. However, I don't think QS is trying for an early January release.