13-12-2002 04:43									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Your argument is as Illogical as it's unconstitutional. You shouldn't have bothered clipping the part of my post where i said it's most likely he meant that only to post the exact same thing as "rebuttal". ...

??????? Auf englisch, bitte. Where on earth did I quote you?

And I'm sorry to see that my argument has been struck down as unconstitutional. I plan to appeal.

	13-12-2002 05:11									#212
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I just hope that this whole situation will act as a wakeup call to the moderate Republicans out there. Finally, some people will see the Republican party for what it is... a collection of racists, self-righteous religious fanatics, and corporate cronies. I just wonder how many Republican voters fall under each of these categories. I think that the majority of Republicans are probably rational people who fall victim to the rhetoric and propaganda.

I also don't understand how this business with Clinton is even comparable to this situation. Personally, I think the fact that somebody is a racist is a more important issue than the sexual mistakes of another person. But then again, there are too many people that still believe that the impeachment crap was justified. And while the FBI and Ken Starr were busy wasting tax-payer money investigating whether or not Monica slobbed on the prez's knob, Osama and his crew were plotting the 9-11 attacks. Once again, the right is wrong.

	13-12-2002 05:27									#213
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: that she had that damned stained dress Has anyone ever figured out why she kept the thing?

Linda Tripp told her to keep it as she might need it later. There isn't much a semen-stained dress is good for. It smells, more than a little, of entrapment.

	13-12-2002 05:40									#214
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quote: Opposed creation of MLK day-said there were people more deserving (who is more deserving than MLK???)

Well, for one, FDR.

It wasn't exactly a unianimously supported bill to have an MLK day. Arizona, for example, still does not recognize MLK day, and I don't think John McCain is a rascist for not speaking out about it.

	13-12-2002 05:46									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Opposed creation of MLK day-said there were people more deserving (who is more deserving than MLK???) Well, for one, FDR.

Somehow i doubt Lott was refering to FDR when he said that...regardless its a debatable point, i wonder who he meant by that, out of curiosity.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It wasn't exactly a unianimously supported bill to have an MLK day. Arizona, for example, still does not recognize MLK day, and I don't think John McCain is a rascist for not speaking out about it.

I didn't call Lott a racist for not supporting MLK day. I was just putting the information out there, for others to draw their own conclusions.

	13-12-2002 05:47									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Opposed creation of MLK day-said there were people more deserving (who is more deserving than MLK???) Well, for one, FDR. It wasn't exactly a unianimously supported bill to have an MLK day. Arizona, for example, still does not recognize MLK day, and I don't think John McCain is a rascist for not speaking out about it.

AFAIK, McCain hasn't actively campaigned AGAINST MLK day, however. Big difference.

	13-12-2002 05:49									#217
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quote: AFAIK, McCain hasn't actively campaigned AGAINST MLK day, however.

But how many Arizona politicians have? It must be substantial, and I've not heard of any crisis of rascism in that state.

	13-12-2002 05:49									#218
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MtG--we could go on a while about the bombs. I have in a couple of other threads. I don't have the energy to rehash, but Eisenhower is quoted as saying the bomb should never had been used, it was unneccessary, the Japanese would have surrendered anyway. He is joined in those sentiments by a host of other top military brass of the period, including the head of the joint chiefs. But, as I said, Off topic.

	13-12-2002 06:25									#219
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http://www.time.com/time/nation/art...,399310,00.html

	13-12-2002 07:44									#220
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Opposed creation of MLK day-said there were people more deserving (who is more deserving than MLK???)

What is particularly wrong with oppossing the creation of another holiday?

quote: Actually stated about the integration of Ole Miss "Yes, you could say that I favored segregation then" Tried to keep his fraternity segregated

1) You and I both know that record hardly makes him a standout from the rest of the people living in Oxford at the time.

2) I don't think that he really had to try hard to keep his frat all white given the type composition of the Greek houses we have to this day.

quote: campaigned for Jefferson Davis's citizenship

Given that Robert E. Lee's citizenship was restored during the Ford administration, the precedent is already there for Davis.

In conclusion, is Lott a jackass? Probably. Is he a racist? Doubtful.

	13-12-2002 07:51									#221
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DD, read the above link. Doubtful?

	13-12-2002 08:48									#222
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Oh please, DD... stop being a Lott apologist... its obvious that he's a racist. His past and present statements and actions support that assertion.

You're backing the wrong horse, Johnny!

	13-12-2002 08:58									#223
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quote: The war crime would have been not dropping the bombs.

Sorry, this is blatantly false. The war crime WAS in not only dropping the atomic bombs, but firebombing and indiscriminately bombing German and Japanese cities. Targetting civilians, which was done on many occasions, is ALWAYS wrong.

Whether or not the Japanese would have surrendered is irrelevant. Whether or not they would have forced their civilians to commit suicide is irrelevant. We are responsible for our own actions, and no one else's. If Japan behaved immorally, we can't control that, but we can damn well control our own actions.

Further, it is also irrelevant if we would have invaded Japan (which was scheduled in Operations Olympic and Coronet). First of all, that would have been our choice, we by no means had to. Second of all, I would rather see US soldiers die in combat than see the US intentionally kill innocent civilians. Finally, an invasion of Japan would have been morally equivalent to murder, anyway, in that the US would have been forcing conscripts to their death, but that's the same as any war.

Point being, the atomic and firebombings were wrong, no questions asked.

quote: Now you're sounding like Floyd. Somebody has a right to resist arrest and kill cops because they're wrongfully being arrested, since they're innocent until proven guilty, but that can't happen until after they're arrested, but they have the right to resist arrest yadda yadda blah blah blah.

Actually one should resist arrest if they know they are innocent, and have a reasonable expectation of the cops either planting evidence on them or finding some other dubious method of gaining conviction, or have a reasonable expectation that the cops will physically harm them once in custody, or if they have the reasonable expectation of being physically harmed in jail.

	13-12-2002 09:00									#224
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What is particularly wrong with oppossing the creation of another holiday?

nothing per se, but when you say that others are more deserving of the honor, it makes me question his thought process on the issue. If he had only discussed how it would hurt efficiency or the economy, that would be fine. But he starts to compare MLK to other people, I question his motives.

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Actually stated about the integration of Ole Miss "Yes, you could say that I favored segregation then" Tried to keep his fraternity segregated 1) You and I both know that record hardly makes him a standout from the rest of the people living in Oxford at the time.

Well, that's certainly true, however, not many people from Oxford are in a position of power such as Lott currently enjoys.

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 2) I don't think that he really had to try hard to keep his frat all white given the type composition of the Greek houses we have to this day.

If you Boris' link, you will see that while his chapter was unified, he was arguing against integration on the national level. It was a heated debate apparently.

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: campaigned for Jefferson Davis's citizenship Given that Robert E. Lee's citizenship was restored during the Ford administration, the precedent is already there for Davis.

I'm not a historian, so it would be wrong for me to comment here, on the differences between the two.

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc In conclusion, is Lott a jackass? Probably. Is he a racist? Doubtful.

Again, I never called him a racist, I was just putting out evidence for others to make their own minds up. I just think he is a guy who can't come up with a new joke after 22 years.

	13-12-2002 09:16									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So only Victorian matrons would consider cheating on your wife with an intern disgraceful? You have a strange set of morals.

quote: It is our business because we are paying him to be president, not get bjs. He has a right to privacy, but not on public property.

At Mare Island back in 90 or so a guy in my Shop was having sex with a temp woman employee in his van during lunch hour (a non-paid time). When the Shipyard found out the woman was fired that day (she was temp employee). They took the man security badge away and sent him to Work Center 29 pending outcome of his charges. The recommendation was termination. I don't remember if he was fired or not.
What Lott said was very stupid at best, however he did not lied to a Federal Grand Jury and then get a pass because he was President.
Any one on this board tell a lied to FGJury and you will be doing time. 5 to 7 years of time.
But since he did say it, he should step down as leader.

quote: Improper sexual conduct on public property is everyone's business. Sorry, it's not his private life when it's on public property.

If you work for the Goverment you will be fired for conduct unbecoming of a Federal Employee as lay out in the Code of Conduct for Federal Employees. This Code reads just like the UCMJ for the Military.
Remember the General who was going to be the Chairman of the Joint Chief until they found out he was having sex with another ladie while he was still married even tho his wife and him were seprated pending a divorce.

	13-12-2002 09:40									#226
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While I agree with you whole-heartedly on the targeting of civilians, David... the dropping of the A-bombs on the targets chosen was the right decision. While the civilian casualties were high, the bombs had to be dropped in areas where their effects would have been significant to cause Japan to surrender. A ground invasion would have caused far more civilian casualties than the A-bombs.

	13-12-2002 09:43									#227
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A ground invasion wasn't necessary, though, so that's a moot point.

	13-12-2002 09:49									#228
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What else besides dropping the bombs, would have gotten Japan to surrender? Perhaps a lengthy embargo and trade sanctions, but as shown with Iraq, many more people would have died of starvation. In fact, about 5 times as many people have died in Iraq due to the sanctions than those killed in the atom bomb attacks.

	13-12-2002 09:51									#229
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quote: A ground invasion would have caused far more civilian casualties than the A-bombs.

So, obviously, we shouldn't have invaded either.

	13-12-2002 09:51									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov A ground invasion wasn't necessary, though, so that's a moot point.

How do you know? Some stupid Prof tell you so?

	13-12-2002 09:55									#231
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That argument can easily go either way, but historical record shows that the Japanese put out peace feelers as early as 1944. Unconditional surrender, though, was always a major sticking point, and that was wrong on our point.

	13-12-2002 09:57									#232
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, obviously, we shouldn't have invaded either.

Why? So the Japanese could rebuild and then we would have to do it again?
I was in Japan in 1963 and 1964 and had a chance to talk to a Gentleman who was a Commander in the Japanese Navy during the war. I asked him if they would have surrender and he said NO. Only when the Emperor spoke up did they the Military stop the fighting.
My brother who was in the Army in the Philippine said his squad had to kill a lot of Japanese solder who would not surrender. Several member of his squad were killed by Japanese after the war was over.
I wonder about some of you kids and your knowledge of WWII.

	13-12-2002 09:58									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph How do you know? Some stupid Prof tell you so?

No, some stupid US Military report, among other military experts:

"Certainly prior to 31 December 1945... Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated." (US Strategic Bombing Survey, 1946.)

"The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima ... was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... In being the first to use it [the atomic bomb], we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages." (Admiral William D. Leahy, Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and President Truman's Chief of Staff)

"Japan was at that very moment seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'... It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." (General Eisenhower).

Now who told you the bombs were necessary to end the war? Some stupid American politician?

	13-12-2002 09:59									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph Why? So the Japanese could rebuild and then we would have to do it again?

Rebuild with what? They were blockaded.

	13-12-2002 10:03									#235
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quote: Oh please, DD... stop being a Lott apologist... its obvious that he's a racist. His past and present statements and actions support that assertion.

Stop being a Byrd apologist... its obvious that he's a rascist. His past and present statements and actions support that assertion.

	13-12-2002 10:05									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Oh please, DD... stop being a Lott apologist... its obvious that he's a racist. His past and present statements and actions support that assertion. Stop being a Byrd apologist... its obvious that he's a rascist. His past and present statements and actions support that assertion.

Past, yes. Present? Like what? And don't bring up the Fox news broadcast...that was pure senility.

	13-12-2002 10:12									#237
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Bullshit. He meant to say 'nigger' and he did. And that's not the only time he's used that word.

	13-12-2002 10:14									#238
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Statements in 1980, the whole fraternity thing (Time Magazine story)...

Unfortunately, Mr. Lott has been a good politician and not made his true motives clear. I've just looked at his past and his stance on a variety of issues, and this is my conclusion. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that him, Thurmond, and others are closet racists.

Imran: Who the F is Byrd? I haven't said one thing about this guy...

	13-12-2002 10:17									#239
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I was in Japan in 1963 and 1964 and had a chance to talk to a Gentleman who was a Commander in the Japanese Navy during the war. I asked him if they would have surrender and he said NO. Only when the Emperor spoke up did they the Military stop the fighting.
My brother who was in the Army in the Philippine said his squad had to kill a lot of Japanese solder who would not surrender. Several member of his squad were killed by Japanese after the war was over.
I wonder about some of you kids and your knowledge of WWII.

	13-12-2002 10:18									#240
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Boris: I not privy to the amount of intelligence available to Truman when he made that decision... maybe he didn't have all the facts either. My opinions on this matter are based upon what I've learned about the whole mess in high school and college (plus many hours of the history channel, don't worry I don't put much stock into that ). It seems that you are more informed than me on this issue. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt to some degree because it's possible you are smarter than me (don't worry, I'm not trying to sleep with you ).