10-12-2002 03:13									#1
	Do we want some Military Intelligence before D-Turn? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Should we do some choice Espionage on a few of the German Cities before we get to D-Turn?

I suggest Hamburg (for 118L); Stuttgart (for 151L) and Hannover (for 92L) as these will be the first targets of the War. We might want to look at Berlin (for 174), but it souldn't be needed, as we will be bombarding the Stuffing out of it, before we take it. That should give us an Idea of the Forces that are Arrayed there at that time.

This will also allow us to see exactly the effects of them loosing the 3 Luxes and their current Science Rate.

E_T

	10-12-2002 03:59									#2
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I would guess not because we will be bombarding before assaulting all cities. And as the hit points go away, by paying attention you can figure out how many defenders there are.

Let me explain:

Initially you see a 4 hp rifleman as defender
You bombard and have success, the rifleman display will short term change to 3 remaining of 4 hp's. After about a second, the display will show a fresh (second) 4 hp rifleman. By watchihg the displays, you can count the defenders. When the display stops changing after success, it means that there are no more 4 hp rifles in town.

The best part of this technique is it's free.

	10-12-2002 04:18									#3
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I think that we can benifit from some intel. Why?

Well if we learn a thing or two, then we can allocate out resources appropriatly. I would rather be taking the first three cities withing a single turn. Intel would help speed that along.

We can move our cannons (or artiliary) into position during the first turn when we cripple them by taking the first three towns. This will put us a turn ahead of schedule in regards to bombing (and taking) Berlin. By using the cannons forthe initial assault we will lose at least a turn.

Mss

	10-12-2002 05:27									#4
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We have no hope of taking one much less 3 cities in one turn. It is suicide for Cavalry to take on Riflemen fortified in Metros on hills. We will have to wait for our measly 20 something fleet of cannon to downsize the target cities.

Stuttgart, Hamburt, and Frankfurt are all Metros (pop 13 +) on hills

Metros 100% + 50%Hills + 25% Fortified = 175% Bonus

So Rifles defending at 6 are effectively
6 * (1+1.75) = 16.5
Now what's a 6 attack Cav gonna do? (loose)

Even when downsized to towns (pop 6 -)
it's 6 * (1 +0.75) = 10.5
Still a tough row to hoe for a 6 attacker.

Save our precious Lytons.

	10-12-2002 05:40									#5
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We will not be requiring military intelligence for our invasion plans. It is a good idea, but un-needed. I agree with Roadcage on this one.

We must make sure that we have a superiorily strong assault force upon entry into German territory, one that is capable of defending against attacking German units and attacking those metro's. That is why I recommend that once the current build queue's are complete, those cities begin switching over to cavalry and cannon.

	10-12-2002 06:33									#6
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If the Senate actually wants this, they need to let me know and give me the authority to actually do this (via a Senate Bill).

Just an FYI.

	10-12-2002 20:48									#7
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With key German metros on Hills, we'll be getting free intel on the # of defending units via bombardment.

This is why I wanted the German invasion to have taken place much earlier, before they had Metros.

As it is, we are in serious danger of them getting Replaceble Parts about the same time the invasion starts, which in addition to Jungle, is found in Forest.

(In my last game, I had 3 Ruber sources, 2 were in Grassland that had previously been Jungle, but the other was in Plains that had previously been forest.)

	10-12-2002 21:53									#8
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Please read my original response to this thread. I do lots of serious bombardment in my personal games and use the bombard results to determine the defender situation all the time. Bombardment results ARE free, while espionage is most deffinately not.

	10-12-2002 22:05									#9
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I say we need the intelligence. As I have been making the plan I have decided 2 cities WILL be assaulted and taken the first turn. We will take losses but I am betting that most of our loses will be retreats and not destruction of the units, these will be protected by rifleman until they can move in and occupied. Roadcage your estimates are absolutely correct. But look at the glass as half full. They meant that on average 3 calv can take a unit. So assuming 1 is destroyed and 1 retreats and the third onewins we can take a 3 defended city with 3 calvary losses. Those are more than acceptable. I considered as president having us go for RP which if we get elec first we will almost certainly get first. In that case I would have upgraded all cannon to artillery. THEN we would have bombarded that first turn. However it seems wiser to go for scientific theory and get TOE. So I would urge the senate to propose spending on intelligence. Once we get this I will assign 4calv for every unit in the city in the assault force. After the intial turn most certainly we will have to lay seige to cities and thus reduce losses. But for the first turn speed and numbers is our strength.
Aggie

	11-12-2002 01:17									#10
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If we got for RP, we will have to wait a turn while the cannons are upgraded. And we will most likely get it after the War has started.

Depending on how long each of the Techs take, RP & SciMeth, we might be able to get RP first then go for Sci Meth. We could then cycle in the cannons during the War and have them become Artillary.

It will be approx 18 turns from now for when we will have all of the sheilds stored for ToE (after the Factory is built).

We'll see during the Turnchat, what the situation will be, but I'm leaning more towards the RP route first. We shall see what we can see at that time.

E_T

	12-12-2002 03:21									#11
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No let's focus on ToE and Hoover.

I don't think they'll be lots of Metros -- yet.

	12-12-2002 07:56									#12
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quote: As I have been making the plan I have decided 2 cities WILL be assaulted and taken the first turn.

Then they better be Hanover and Cologne. Both are on plains and simply cities rather than metros. One is theoretically reachable in one turn from our territory and the other is reachable in one turn provided we have an ROP with the Aztecs.

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	12-12-2002 08:31									#13
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Actually they are Hamburg and Hanover. I had not considered Cologne because I didn't want to have an rop with the aztecs. You will notice Hamburg is also just a city right now. The schedule I am coming up with is something like this(it is very tentative, note that if by a miracle and we had rp, we could really blitz that first turn) we attack Hamburg and Hanover that first turn, we also move a strong force to stuggart(using the new city). We shell stuggart and then rush them the second turn and forces near hanover finish the west salient. Turn four we attack berlin, again with the aid of cannon. I have not put this out as a full plan as I am still doing some calculations but if we get artillery I think we could have all four cities the first turn. For the attack on berlin I plan on 20 calvary and all cannon. This plan isn't yet ready for primetime but is close.
Aggie

	12-12-2002 09:05									#14
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I think we should get the Aztec ROP. After all, what's the downside? If they break it, that's the perfect excuse to liberate southern Aztecia (Chicago, Washington, and Boston)

And furthurmore, we NEED the ROP to get our workers out of San whatsitsname.

We will need the ROP a few turns before the war starts to pre-build a rail spur to the jump off point.

	12-12-2002 11:54									#15
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Aggie, I think that your being very optomistic about how fast that we can take some of the cities.

As I'm running for SMC next term, and If I'm elected, I would be taking office in the middle of the war.

Here's my plan (see attached map - It could be bigger, but I have no FTP space currently because my ISP is changing hands).

THe first assalt will be along the Red Arrows. When I had origianlly made the map, I was thinking of spitting the Assault alont three differet routes, but I've changed it slightly.

THere would be two prongs of the assult, the Center & Right paths. On each section, we have about 2/5th of our assalt forces, with about 1/5th in Reserve (for any Unforseen dificulties).

The Right:
D-Turn: THe Cav advance to Stuttgart through the just established City of Abandonment. The Cannons, Rifle & 1 Settler advance to the hill that is just south of Stuttgart (Blue Circle). The Explorers advance to the positions marked with an X around Berlin and on the route from Nuremburg. The Yellow is for 1 Explorer, Red is for two (RailRoad Tiles) and they Raze. THe Cav will make a couple of spoiling attacks, depending on what is showing at Stuttgart, but will mostly wait for the next turn.

Some of the Cav might be needed to take a slave or two around Berlin, because of ongoing RailRoad PW projects that the Germans are doing.

D-Turn plus 1: THe Cannons & Cav Attack and take the City, Razing it to the Ground. THe Settler at the Blue circle builds a New City (?New Stuttgart?) and any PW that is needed for the advance is built. Any Cannons that weren't used in the assault will go towards Berlin, with escort. Any Explorers that survived will go and do further damage to Berlin's Food surplus. Some of the Cavalry will be sent towards Frankfurt or Hamburg. THe Wounded will recover in this city.


The Center:
D-Turn: THe Cav Advance to the Hill that is SW of Hamburg. THere might be a spoiling attack, but they will fortify and wait. The Cannon & Rifles & 1 Settler will be 2 turns away.

D-Turn plus 1: THe Cannon & Rifle advance to the city. THe Cav move off of the Hill, to join the main group. Their might be some spoiling attacks again, but mostly going after loose defenders.

D-Turn plus 2: Attack and take Hamburg. If the city doesn't have enough war spoils, we bring the Settler in, Abandon the City and Rebuild from scratch. If the City is worth Salvaging, then we keep it and start starving/worker farming it down to 3. Part of the Force goes to Bombard Berlin, other goes toward Frankfurt. We will need to have a fair size force here to remove posible resistors.


By this time, we should have enough from both forces to send a fast strike (Cav only) after Hannover and then Cologne. We also send a Rifle group & worker to the x-ed out tile that is south and east of Hannover, to build a road and provide later logistics.

The combined forces will assult Frankfurt on around D-Turn plus 5 to 7. A turn or two of plain bombardment, coupled with a choice Cav assult should get the city to a softened state and it can be taken then.

Berlin should fall by D-Turn plus 10.

E_T

P.S. No Plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Attachment: german plan 1 600x385.jpg
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