27-12-2002 03:19									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Harel Wrong. Israel doesn't have any enemies that understandbly hate her. Israel has enemies that unreasonably hate her. Big difference. Don't be deluded to think that Austria isn't hated with the same passion, being part of the west, as Israel by the Islamic dictatorships.

Israel isn´t part of the West. The West is the family of European Nations, to which Israel doesn´t belong. The sharper Arabs know this just as well as I, so what they want from the West is to stick to its own affairs, not meddle with their governments, and stop support to Israel, which is all reasonable.

Believe me, I am quite sure that Arabs have absolutely nothing against Western people (and peoples) that agree with them on these issues.

	27-12-2002 22:35									#62
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I should not expect you to be an expert at English grammar, but you have misread the dependent clauses in Harel's last sentence. I doubt you can see past your own obsessions to understand what he was saying… probably very much like the effect a widespread but low imact telepathic control might have.

Imagine that, CT, you've almost persuaded me to change my position on whether there should be telepathy in a game of this sort!

	28-12-2002 01:29									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow I should not expect you to be an expert at English grammar, but you have misread the dependent clauses in Harel's last sentence.

Nonsense. He clearly implies that the Arab masses hate 'the West', that Israel is part of the West and that therefore we should make common cause with Israel. All wrong. The Arabs hate the West only insofar we interfere with their business, which is understandable. Stop trying to order the Arabs around, let them manage their own countries as they see fit, drop Israel, and we will have no problems with any Arab, Muslim or non-Muslim. Btw, what has Israel ever done for us?

	30-12-2002 00:52									#64
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No, he says that Austria is part of the West, and the West is hated with a passion comparable to their hatred for Israel.

You see, it's only that Israel is physically "in the way" of controlling "their" lands, whereas the West (including Austria) is only "in the way" as a matter of diplomatic policy. The militants would hate you just as much if your politics got "in the way" somehow. As it is, they only hate you a little because you are a useful dupe.

The majority of people just don't care enough to think or act on any of it. If there were some kind of telepathy there would be a lot more useful dupes. And a lot fewer people who think about it and realize that terrorism is unacceptable, period, even when it isn't in your back yard or you in the cross-hairs.

	30-12-2002 23:34									#65
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The Arabs don´t hate the West. They would ignore us just as much as we should ignore them. Keep out of the Middle East, and keep the Middle East out of you. Simple, really.

As to terrorism: Yes, I am against it, and especially against the state terrorism of Israel and the USA. Assassinating people is terrorism. Bombing countries without a DoW is terrorism. Obviously.

	31-12-2002 00:12									#66
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I think that is not that simple. First they believe that non believers are infidels and need to be dead.
Most countries can stay out of distant counries, but the largest ones can not. They have dealing all over the world and will act to protect them, be it right or wrong. It is human nature.
In the end the world will not be able to ignore fundamental Muslim. They will not let us. They will not coexist with others peacefully.

	01-01-2003 01:19									#67
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 First they believe that non believers are infidels and need to be dead.

Do you really think they sat down around the campfire and said: 'Americans are non-believers. They are too immoral [correct assessment, btw ] and they have too many high towers. Let´s blow a few up!' ?

If you don´t leave them alone, you have only yourselves to blame. And besides: Why should I, as an Austrian, sympathize with American oil interests or Israeli craziness? All I say is: There is no reason in the world why Arabs will attack Austria, as long as we do as little as possible to support Bush/Sharon´s war.

And, btw: If there DO happen any acts of terror against Europe, I will believe the CIA did it, certainly NOT any Arabs, unless otherwise proven.

	01-01-2003 02:10									#68
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Why would they attack Austria when they use it as a waypoint to the 'West'. I wouldn't shoot my cow as long as it was giving me milk.

	01-01-2003 02:58									#69
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It is not weither I think that or not. Their leaders have said it. Are you not following their statements at all?
Is there some reason, I should not believe them when they say that? I can not read minds, but I do understand what they say and have seen their actions.
Personally I would prefer to get out of all countries, but that is not going to happen.
As to non believer, if you mean in Allah, you are correct. If you mean God, you are ill informed again. The country has one of the higher church attendence around. More than 70% believe in god (I am not one of them).

	01-01-2003 03:05									#70
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BTW, all non Muslims are infidels, not just USA. In case you had not noticed it they are attacking people in the Manila, India and many other places. The US is just the most visible, not even the largest. Russia and China are seeing it as well.

	01-01-2003 11:39									#71
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quote: Harel: …as Israel by the Islamic dictatorships [emphasis added] Straybow: …the West is hated with a passion comparable to their [dictatorships categorized by Harel] hatred for Israel

Neither of us said that "Arab masses" (whoever that means) hated Isreal or the West. Classic example of reading what you want to read, instead of what your opponents have actually written. This is another way that some kind of broad effect telepathy could work—by dumbing down all rational thought into irrational reaction.

	02-01-2003 06:00									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Xentax I don't see how a few dozen or hundred telepaths instantly and totally brainwashing thousands or millions of alien minds is "plausible".

The art of using a few hundred people to totally brainwash thousands or millions of other minds is called mass media.

....Does convincing a nation to allow a man to become president who was not legally voted into office count as brainwashing?

:-) Heh

	02-01-2003 11:14									#73
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 It is not weither I think that or not. Their leaders have said it. Are you not following their statements at all? Is there some reason, I should not believe them when they say that?

When have the Arab leaders ever said they are going to attack Austria?

You seem to overlook that I don´t care about them attacking the United States; particularly when I understand why they are doing that.

	02-01-2003 23:02									#74
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They have stated that they it is their duty to kill non believers. Last I know that includes most of Austria. Obviously that is a task that is beyond their capabilities, but they are plenty able to kill people all over the world from time to time and have been doing so for some time.
They managed to do it in Germany, so I do not see any difficulties with getting some damage in Austria do you?
The point is they see infidels as non human and intend to not accept them. Weither they ever get to me or to you is not for me to say. Only that history has show that you can not placate evil. I trust you see killing people becasue they do not follow your religion is evil. If not them what can be said. So getting out is not the real issue and never was.

	03-01-2003 04:07									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Do you really think they sat down around the campfire and said: 'Americans are non-believers. They are too immoral [correct assessment, btw ]

So, how are you MORE moral than Americans? I've seen Austrian pornography...yeeeech!

quote: Why should I, as an Austrian, sympathize with American oil interests or Israeli craziness?

You like jack boots? Be glad you aren't compelled to wear them. Let's not forget deathcamps.

quote: All I say is: There is no reason in the world why Arabs will attack Austria, as long as we do as little as possible to support Bush/Sharon´s war.

Do you really believe that if 'neutral' Austria would not eventually be a target. The fact that you are an Infidel makes you a target, genius.

quote: You seem to overlook that I don´t care about them attacking the United States; particularly when I understand why they are doing that.

Trust me, when bad stuff happens to 'neutral' Austria, no one cares either.

Don't forget, the US gives more money to the worlds' poor people than most other countres COMBINED, even ex-collaborators and 'neutral' countries who like to pretend that if they hide no one will find them.

If drug dealers live in your neighborhood and they are only robbing/killing the 'rich' people, would you just think, "Uhhhh, if I do as little as possible to help the police they won't hurt me."...? Oh, wait, of course YOU would.

	03-01-2003 08:36									#76
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You both didn´t follow this thread. Anyways, nobody is just killing un-believers. Bin Laden made very clear -repeatedly- what he wants: Get out of Saudi-Arabia and all other Islamic countries. Stolp helping Israel terrorize Palestine. And, if you know what´s in your own best interest, get the Zionists out of your government. Hardly bad advice. This would be the moral and reasonable things to do, even if no Al Quaida existed.

	03-01-2003 19:48									#77
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What a load of crap.

"Israel isn't part of the West".

'The West' is not a geographic distinction, it's a cultural and political one. *Greece* was the originator of most of Western culture, and they're hardly part of Europe.

"No-one here is countering my facts on Iraq and Kuwait"

What, did you just ignore my response? What you say is FAR from factual, and I *did* counter it (Hint: Look here).

Who is bin Laden to kill people because he wants the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia, and all the rest of that drivel? He doesn't lead or otherwise represent Saudi Arabia.

Do you think the current government of Saudi Arabia is the legitimate government? If so, *they're* the ones who allow us to be there, so he should be targeting THEM, not us.

If you think they're NOT the legitimate government, AGAIN, he should be going after them, not us, because they're the ones oppressing the Saudi people and allowing the U.S. to be there. So you're just full of crap on that count, too.

The US doesn't impose its will on anyone, UNLIKE the people you support like Milosevic and Hussein. We help where our offer to help is accepted. The closest we come to imposing our will is removing people like those I just mentioned, and if you ask the people we free, you'll find that they welcome the help. The French certainly appreciated the help back in '44.

Stop trolling, Tribune. You're wasting everyone's time, and you only look more foolish with each post you've made.

Or keep it up. If you win, history will repeat itself, and by 2044, large portions of the currently-free world will again find themselves oppressed and occupied, and need the US to come save the day.

You can't blame us when you find yourself lying in the bed you insist on making.

	03-01-2003 23:27									#78
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No Xentax, you don't get it. Comrade "more moral than thou" Tribune is counting on being one of the oppressors rather than one of the oppressed when comes the revolution. That's why he likes the idea of Telepathy to control the people, since all other methods have failed repeatedly (in Europe, that is). Let him dream.

	04-01-2003 04:10									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Xentax What a load of crap. "Israel isn't part of the West". 'The West' is not a geographic distinction, it's a cultural and political one. *Greece* was the originator of most of Western culture, and they're hardly part of Europe. "No-one here is countering my facts on Iraq and Kuwait" What, did you just ignore my response? What you say is FAR from factual, and I *did* counter it (Hint: Look here). Who is bin Laden to kill people because he wants the U.S. out of Saudi Arabia, and all the rest of that drivel? He doesn't lead or otherwise represent Saudi Arabia. Do you think the current government of Saudi Arabia is the legitimate government? If so, *they're* the ones who allow us to be there, so he should be targeting THEM, not us. If you think they're NOT the legitimate government, AGAIN, he should be going after them, not us, because they're the ones oppressing the Saudi people and allowing the U.S. to be there. So you're just full of crap on that count, too. The US doesn't impose its will on anyone, UNLIKE the people you support like Milosevic and Hussein. We help where our offer to help is accepted. The closest we come to imposing our will is removing people like those I just mentioned, and if you ask the people we free, you'll find that they welcome the help. The French certainly appreciated the help back in '44. Stop trolling, Tribune. You're wasting everyone's time, and you only look more foolish with each post you've made. Or keep it up. If you win, history will repeat itself, and by 2044, large portions of the currently-free world will again find themselves oppressed and occupied, and need the US to come save the day. You can't blame us when you find yourself lying in the bed you insist on making.

Xentax you are so brainwashed even I find it amazing. Either you are one of the worst hypocrites I´ve ever met, or you really believe all this nonsense. In this case I heartily wish you all the luck in the world, because you are going to need it.

Greece not part of Europe? Are you one of those Americans who can´t read maps?

Btw, 'European' is not just a geographical distinction, it´s an ethnical one. (Though we are supposed to pretend otherwise, for the sake of political correctness.)

Of course the Saudi government is not legitimate. It´s a foreign installation with colonial origin, purely and simply. Yes, the King of Saudi Arabia deserves to be hanged, but why go for the monkey when you can go for the organ grinder? Bin Laden´s position of 'first things first' certainly does makes sense. (First throw the foreigners out, then hang their puppets. A concept which makes the guy look more reasonable than you sound.)

'The US doesn't impose its will on anyone.' -I can´t be bothered to comment on this, sorry. Ask elected President Chavez about this. Or some people who are no longer with us, like elected President Allende, or democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh.

	04-01-2003 04:17									#80
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Btw, if Bin Laden didn´t commit acts of violence, the unfortunate thing is that in our -oh, so free- press, he wouldn´t stand a snowball in hell chance to get his very good advice in print. To repeat myself:

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Get out of Saudi-Arabia and all other Islamic countries. Stolp helping Israel terrorize Palestine. And, if you know what´s in your own best interest, get the Zionists out of your government. This would be the moral and reasonable things to do, even if no Al Quaida existed.

	06-01-2003 18:49									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Xentax you are so brainwashed even I find it amazing. Either you are one of the worst hypocrites I´ve ever met, or you really believe all this nonsense. In this case I heartily wish you all the luck in the world, because you are going to need it. Greece not part of Europe? Are you one of those Americans who can´t read maps? Btw, 'European' is not just a geographical distinction, it´s an ethnical one. (Though we are supposed to pretend otherwise, for the sake of political correctness.) Of course the Saudi government is not legitimate. It´s a foreign installation with colonial origin, purely and simply. Yes, the King of Saudi Arabia deserves to be hanged, but why go for the monkey when you can go for the organ grinder? Bin Laden´s position of 'first things first' certainly does makes sense. (First throw the foreigners out, then hang their puppets. A concept which makes the guy look more reasonable than you sound.) 'The US doesn't impose its will on anyone.' -I can´t be bothered to comment on this, sorry. Ask elected President Chavez about this. Or some people who are no longer with us, like elected President Allende, or democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh.

Yay, more word games. Yes Greece is more a part of Europe than anywhere else, geographically. It's a lot closer to "Near East" than "European" in many ways, however.

So let me see if I have your position straight: The "Zionists" of which I am (to you) certainly either a member or a helpless slave of, are setting up mandated, illegitimate governments in various places, imposing their will. Right.

And what is Saddam Hussein, if I may ask? He wasn't exactly freely-elected by the Iraqi people.

Just who do you think SHOULD be ruling the Saudi? Bin Laden? Yeah, right, put him in an election with ANYONE ELSE in Saudi Arabia and see who wins. Maybe Hussein should rule all of the Middle East in your vision?

As for your free press comments, do you really think that no-one knows what Bin Laden wants?

Of course we know he hates Western culture and would gladly kill every citizen of it. You can describe his motives and desires in less cut-and-dry terms if you wish, but THAT is the unvarnished truth. He would MUCH rather kill me for the mere crime of not being born to Islamic parents than try to "free" me from the Great Satan.

But hey, I said it before -- we've tried the isolationist game (which you keep pushing) before, and we saw where that got the rest of the world -- straight to hell in a handbasket.

The saying goes "An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure" (that's 28.35 and 453.6 grams, respectively, for those of you not using the Evil Zionist system of weights and measures). The US would rather restrain or remove would-be-tyrants like Hussein now, when they've killed hundreds or thousands, rather than give them a crack at killing millions.

	07-01-2003 01:11									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Xentax But hey, I said it before -- we've tried the isolationist game (which you keep pushing) before, and we saw where that got the rest of the world -- straight to hell in a handbasket. The saying goes "An ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure" (that's 28.35 and 453.6 grams, respectively, for those of you not using the Evil Zionist system of weights and measures). The US would rather restrain or remove would-be-tyrants like Hussein now, when they've killed hundreds or thousands, rather than give them a crack at killing millions.

Good points, Xentax. The appeasment game never worked and never will. Nor does the isolation game. Cut out the cancer and incinerate it...it's the only way to be sure.
'Commie Tribute' simply likes to try to get reactions from people. His answer to any problem seems to be 'play dead, maybe they won't notice me'. Meanwhile he is so enraged at his inability to act (in either direction), that he doesn't see the GIANT target on HIS non-believing back.

Pretending to understand them (which you don't, anyway), will not save your life when they shoot down your plane, cut your pilot's throat, poison your water, etc.

	07-01-2003 01:12									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Satyre The art of using a few hundred people to totally brainwash thousands or millions of other minds is called mass media. ....Does convincing a nation to allow a man to become president who was not legally voted into office count as brainwashing? :-) Heh

Actually he WAS voted in by the procedure written into our constitution via the Electorial college.

Speaking of mass media, I see you've fallen victim if you believe the lie that he didn't win the majority of the popular vote as well since in MOST states if the cantidate out-right won the state some of the votes were never counted at all.

Care to come back with any more media brain-washing you want straightened out?

	07-01-2003 02:10									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Speaking of mass media, I see you've fallen victim if you believe the lie that he didn't win the majority of the popular vote as well since in MOST states if the cantidate out-right won the state some of the votes were never counted at all.

I don't think that's correct. Why would a state just stop counting ballots when each ballot contains not just the presidential race but state and local as well? Also, why would they stop counting presidential votes if they still had to run through the other races?

	08-01-2003 20:20									#85
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"And what is Saddam Hussein, if I may ask? He wasn't exactly freely-elected by the Iraqi people. "

Neither REALLY was GWB. Seems to me the person who WAS elected by the PEOPLE was Gore.
Side note: I love how Americans seems to think they are the model form of gov't.


"As for your free press comments, do you really think that no-one knows what Bin Laden wants?"

IMHO he's hate has something to do with him fighting Americas war with the USSR and being promised assistance for "his People" Where they COULD have bent over for Russia. America offered them hope. Not that it was a Bad thing. But, America hardly held up their side. Which led to the Taliban rule. (russian occupation might have been better) in the long run. Ironic thing is after the Twin towers..Maybe, he did get what he wanted. I can't think of a better way to get an infrastructure than to pick a fight with america.


"But hey, I said it before -- we've tried the isolationist game (which you keep pushing) before, and we saw where that got the rest of the world -- straight to hell in a handbasket."

Well I have to disagree with you there. Germany would have been defeated anyway. couple years later at most. Hitler was fighting on to many fronts stopped dead in England. and being pushed back slowley but surley by Russia. But most of Europe would likley be Russian. I always get a kick when I hear American opinions that they won WWII. The war had been going on for HOW long before America even got involved.

A second stringer that jumps in and scores the final goal hardly won the game. But, deserves all the credit in the world for finally getting in the game.

Last edited by jaycayne on 08-01-2003 at 20:27

	09-01-2003 03:16									#86
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quote: Originally posted by jaycayne "And what is Saddam Hussein, if I may ask? He wasn't exactly freely-elected by the Iraqi people. " I love how Americans seems to think they are the model form of gov't.

Are you SURE...that we ALL feel that way?

quote: "As for your free press comments, do you really think that no-one knows what Bin Laden wants?" But, America hardly held up their side. Which led to the Taliban rule. (russian occupation might have been better) in the long run.

Agreed.

quote: I always get a kick when I hear American opinions that they won WWII. The war had been going on for HOW long before America even got involved.

Guess you're not up on WWII history...what about the trans-Atlantic lifeline from America to England, eventually USSR, and MANY other countries? The Russian T-34 (best overall tank of the war, for you non-history readers), was designed and rejected by the US. I've read a lot from the Russian side...most agree they would not have even STOPPED the Germans without it.

Hitlers' plan to eventually invade North America was to swarm in through 'undefended' Canada.

quote: A second stringer that jumps in and scores the final goal hardly won the game. But, deserves all the credit in the world for finally getting in the game.

I do not think America WON the war, we ALL did as ALLIES...remember that word? Alone, the US could never have beaten the evil Japanese and Germans....well at least until say, 1947 or so... J/K...calm down.

Actually, Germany probably could have won the war, or at least conquered all of Europe (+England), Africa, and the Soviets if they didn't have Hitler as a commander. He was nutty and emotional. If he had left the fighting to his brilliant generals, dropped all the wasteful 'wonder weapons' projects, and stuck to meddling in the occult, we might all not be having this conversation.

	09-01-2003 03:28									#87
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America deserves honourable mention for (belatedly) joining the (comparatively) good guys in WWII. However, as you (Jaycayne) say, the war was mostly won by the Soviets, and if we take country size/population/economy into consideration, then a case can be made that it was the Brits whose efforts were most impressive.

Xentax (and the other crazy American chauvinists): Discussion with you is pointless, because you simply don´t read/understand what the other side says. No one except total idiots can believe that Bin Laden simply wants to kill Unbelievers. He doesn´t kill any Confucians or Hindus, and I doubt he is interested in killing Quakers or even Catholics. His only problem, as far as I see, is with Americans and Zionists, and not even necessarily with the first, because he is certainly going to stop attacking you, if you leave the Near East and stop supporting Israel. You know full well that this is true!

As to Saddam, he has nothing whatever to do with Bin Laden. You know that as well, so stop pretending already.

	09-01-2003 10:05									#88
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Okay,
I'm sorry to have steriotyped ALL americans.
However, there is a HUGE mass uneducateed or educated and Blindy patriotics that seem to like to preach THEIR version of history. I don't blame Americans. But, rather the media and American Policy makers for letting the West be so masked by their gov'ts propoganda.

As for Saddam, he has done nothing that the American Gov't didn't know or assisted in for the last 40 yrs. I'm sure that Nixon or Regan could just as easy be convicted as accomplice to many of the things the US accuses Iraq of doing. How can America denouce a country for doing what it has been doing sice 1945. As a matter of fact America USED them. But, either way should the UN have the power to remove any Soverin states leader from power. Let alone a single country just decide "he should go"

I think Bush should go. He's got the Rednecks in an uproar. (No offense to the non-Rednecks. But, you know that Steriotypical Redneck-bible-belting-overly patriotic-we-got-the-bomb-kinda-american. You know who you are. What im saying is what right does ANYONE have in saying he should go. HE wasn't "democraticaly" elected. NO, Not your proxy democratic "electoral" college. I think that Al gore needs to be presdent he was Elected "democraticaly" by a POPULAR vote....sigh.....

My rant is done.....

sorry

Last edited by jaycayne on 09-01-2003 at 10:15

	09-01-2003 19:27									#89
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Well... There are a lot of Canadians who are as bad or worse than American's as well I bet, they just don't HAVE a PC or internet connection to prove it...

I'm sure that Nixon or Regan could just as easy be convicted as accomplice to many of the things the US accuses Iraq of doing. How can America denouce a country for doing what it has been doing sice 1945.

Funny, but I don't remember the US using LETHAL nerve gas on citizens protesting our government and killing thousands since 1945, the way Saddam did the Kurds. I don't remember the US having invaded a foreign country uninvited and having only been kicked out via force with the aim of "conquest" the way Saddam did when he invaded Kuwait and the US led UN coalition did back in 1991.

Want to reign in your UNEDUCATED opinions or just keep showing your bias?

You think Bush should go, based on what? Don't tell me that you BELIEVE *everything8 the news media says? lol, Gore did NOT win the popular vote, JUST the popular votes that were counted. You may be surprised to note that there were thousands of absentee ballot's that were *never* counted when it was clear the cantidate would win the "normal" vote count without needing the absentee ballot's.

Oh, and the US isn't a Democracy, we're a republic, you know, as in the pledge where we "swear allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands"...

Oh, and for your information the silent majority, i.e. the people NOT represented by the people in the news, are not "redneck, bible-thumping, blah blah blah" folks, they are decent hard-working people, just like the other citizens of the world, it's just now most of them appreciate having a president who isn't willing to bend over for every little two-bit country in the world, or even Canada (), and who is willing to put the interests of the US equal with the interests of everyone else not like some lapdog.

Of course, if you live in a country where you haven't accomplished much except a pro hockey team or two and a nifty looking flag you might not understand that...

Oh, no hard feelings by the way, just proving that one good rant deserves another...

	09-01-2003 23:25									#90
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Actually, IIRC on a per-capita basis Canadians have more access to technology than Americans do. As an example, you do know that America is trailing just about all other modern countries in broadband (cable/DSL) penetration, right?

Not to say that we don't have our fair share of nutters and extremists of one form or another. And, of course most people are just people, even in the US. The fact that only the squeaky wheels tend to get noticed applies equally pretty much everywhere.

As for Canada not having accomplished anything much, while I realize you (probably) weren't serious, you have no basis for that. For instance, if you were to actually look at the Canadian participation in WWII, and in conflicts since then, you'd give your best ally a bit more credit. Moreover, who was it that had the world's second most powerful economy in the years immediately following WWII? I'll give you one guess...