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bluemule2
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Earth
Dec 2002
time: 05:24
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God, I hope so! In a world that could evolve a sentient race with such mental prowess(sp) what in the galaxy could withstand it? [SHEER MIGHT] or {SHEER FRIGHT?}
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PriestOfDiscord
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of the Arms Dealers.
Sep 2002
time: 00:24
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Telepathy could have been used as a interesting pick for spies and diplomacy options, but I agree that the form it was used in Moo2 was overpowered beyond words. I'm glad they took it out, though it would have been nice if they had they tweaked it around a bit.
Heh, Xentax you haven't seen the off topic forum here have you? You have the full spectrum from loony Euro-Socialists to closet fascists. The political rules are close to non-existant here.
Last edited by PriestOfDiscord on 11-12-2002 at 01:44
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wervdon
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quote:
I don't see how a few dozen or hundred telepaths instantly and totally brainwashing thousands or millions of alien minds is "plausible". |
Personally I think it would of been fine in MOO II had the size class & number of ships needed to accomplish it was based on population size. Like say a cruiser class ship can mind control a size 1 planet, a battleship for size 2, a titan for size 3, a doomstar for size 4, 2 doomstars for size 5 etc. And allowing lesser ship classes to add up to a larger one at like a 5:1 ratio or such (5 cruisers count as a battleship, 5 battleships at a titan, etc.) Then to be totally fair, it still shouldnt result in instant assimilation.....thats unrealistic. Incidently, these #'s is just an example, Im not really sure what would of been balanced in terms of gameplay, I just know 1 cruiser mind controls a size 20 world with instant assimilation was not 
As for it making sense, you arent having to mind control 100% of the planets population, just the leaders (political and military). Still not a small task on a planetary scale, but definatley not billions of people.
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gramians
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Toronto Canada
Jul 2002
time: 00:24
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Two things:
First the "plausibility" of having a race mind control another. If you assume it takes 1 telepath his or her full concentration to control 1 slave, then you have two people doing the work of one. The work of the slave has to feed the telepath, who sits on the sofa and controls the slave, but would rather be out doing something else. Considering you would then need a night-shift mind controller, so your slave doesnt wake up in the middle of the night and whoop you for making him clean out the garage... and you have a really sorry state. A bunch of blue people sitting around doing nothing while watching the slave work. Reminds me of a job I had when I was younger.
Secondly... I forgot about secondly.... 
 Oh yeah, As far as losing the cheezy aliens and new-found realism goes, I don't find that to be very important or a selling factor. The cheeziest star trek franchise (the original series) still has the biggest appeal over it's more serious progeny does it not? (I'm guessing here.) That's likely due to the cheeze: the low cut dresses, green women, Kirk's double handed axe punch... how many times did they go to an ancient rome or nazi germany alternate universe anyway? Realistic? Hell no. Fun? Hell yes.
Not that I'm a cheesie poof eating, klingon speaking, trekkie fanatic or anything. 
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wervdon
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Oh while we're at it lets take this hypothetical psilon/elarian example out a few more turns 
Lets say that of our 5 million psilon, 500, 000 (10%) are in the defense corp and are heavily armed.
On turn 1 we mind control 30,000 of them and turn them on their friends. They lose horribly due to being out numbered, lets assume a 10:1 slaughter meaning they all die and only inflict 3,000 casaulties in the confusion. Leaving us with 467,000 psilon with guns
Turn 2: We take 30,000 more! They only get slaughtered 10:1, leaving us with only 434,000 psilon...
Turn 3: We take another 30,000, by now the kill ratio is getting a bit better cause the numbers are dwindling, lets say only 8:1 now.... That only leaves about 400,000
Repeat enough, and the only army left on the planet is the one we control...
----
So the only real issue with mind control if you ask me is how its implimented in moo2. Its instantanous, produces no resentment in the population as a whole, and even gives instant 100% assimilation :P
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Comrade Tribune
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Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozymandous
And then suddenly the hypnosis wears off and you have a huge amount of pissed off entities on your hands. Or maybe the strain of trying to mentally control billions of people would make your race have a chance of their heads exploding and you instantly losing the game, now that would be balabced. :P
Boring or balanced? lol, let me guess, you always used mass missle boats early on, and had telepathy and creative as your racial picks, every-single-game, right? rofl! |
No, I used Telepathy with Unification, because that would be my designer race, could I create one. I didnīt use Creative at all. Itīs all about style and role-play with me, not Utilitarianism.
Your other idea was actually quite good: Mass Hypnosis sometimes to back-fire, now that would be cool. We are witnessing that in the real world just now, people start to get annoyed about PC speech codes, and they do backfire. 
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Comrade Tribune
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Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by gramians
Two things:
First the "plausibility" of having a race mind control another. If you assume it takes 1 telepath his or her full concentration to control 1 slave, then you have two people doing the work of one. The work of the slave has to feed the telepath, who sits on the sofa and controls the slave, but would rather be out doing something else. Considering you would then need a night-shift mind controller, so your slave doesnt wake up in the middle of the night and whoop you for making him clean out the garage... and you have a really sorry state. A bunch of blue people sitting around doing nothing while watching the slave work. Reminds me of a job I had when I was younger.
Secondly... I forgot about secondly....
Oh yeah, As far as losing the cheezy aliens and new-found realism goes, I don't find that to be very important or a selling factor. The cheeziest star trek franchise (the original series) still has the biggest appeal over it's more serious progeny does it not? (I'm guessing here.) That's likely due to the cheeze: the low cut dresses, green women, Kirk's double handed axe punch... how many times did they go to an ancient rome or nazi germany alternate universe anyway? Realistic? Hell no. Fun? Hell yes.
Not that I'm a cheesie poof eating, klingon speaking, trekkie fanatic or anything. |
#1: Not so. The Telepaths would go for your government and the mass media. More is not needed. Case in point: Americans now happily preparing for a totally unjustified War of Aggression against Iraq. It works.
#2: Agreed.
Last edited by Comrade Tribune on 12-12-2002 at 01:40
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gramians
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Toronto Canada
Jul 2002
time: 00:24
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As wervdon and comrade tribune have pointed out, you only need to control the fraction with power - be it government, media, guns... or whatever. But let me assure you that that control would only be temporary. A few dozen cycles.
To return to Comrade's example, look again at America. They have more guns than they know what to do with, they own the media, and their government is so strong it makes the UN, NATO, and any international convention redundant.
But do they have complete global control?
No.
Are they maintaining the control they have?
No.
Anyway. I'm rambling...
Did I mention telepathic women are hoooooooooooooooot?
---------------------------------------
Lock up SLOBO, lock up KISSENGER, kick DUBYA in the ballsack and elect ME as world ruler!
"If killing hundreds of thousands of innocent peasants by dropping million of tons of bombs on undefended civilian targets is not a war crime, then there are no war crimes. If Kissinger is not responsible for these crimes, then there are no war criminals."
--- Fred Branfman on Kissenger. for more, look here...
http://dir.salon.com/books/feature/...nger/index.html
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Ozymandous
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Atlanta, GA
Aug 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by moomin
Weather telepathic races are plausible or not is quite beside the point. Telepathic races are fun. They seriously reduce MM. I can't remeber last time I used troop transports in Moo2 - if I am telepathic, I can bother to conquer and "auto build" in the late game, if I'm not, I jsut bomb away. |
Telepathic races, as implemented in MOO2 are OVERPOWERED as well. The pick in MOO2 should cost double what it does simply because it is much too powerful. When fun and unbalance collide fun loses, unlike fun vs. reality, where fun usually win's (at least in PC games) and is one reason why we won't have a "galaxy simulator" as Alan initially wanted but instead a space empire game.
quote:
I too feel its to bad this pick was left out. I really think the notion of ground combat is plain stupid - once you've beaten the fleet in space, the planet should surrender automatically. |
Just like the Allies and Axis ground troops surrendered automatically once they lost air superiority in WW2? Just like any of the rebel groups around the world automatically surrendered when fighting against supreior odds?
Yeah, right, that's realistic. Not everyone will meekly lie down to die at the mere thought of having to fight for what they believe in, but depending on your culture, people may or may not understand that philopsphy.
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gramians
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Toronto Canada
Jul 2002
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozymandous
Telepathic races, as implemented in MOO2 are OVERPOWERED as well. The pick in MOO2 should cost double what it does simply because it is much too powerful. When fun and unbalance collide fun loses, unlike fun vs. reality, where fun usually win's (at least in PC games) and is one reason why we won't have a "galaxy simulator" as Alan initially wanted but instead a space empire game.
Just like the Allies and Axis ground troops surrendered automatically once they lost air superiority in WW2? Just like any of the rebel groups around the world automatically surrendered when fighting against supreior odds?
Yeah, right, that's realistic. |
Putting a price tag on Telepathy is difficult, though making it cost double is not the answer. The problem is, it is powerful later in the game but absolutely useless in the first phase of empire building. If it cost double, you would be so weak at production you would never have the opportunity to enslave anyone.
Again on realism: No matter how much more complex this game gets, with ground battles etc. it is hardly realistic. So there is no point saying that it is unrealistic for the game to progress with automatic control over the colonies. Hell, if you want realism you would never be able to obtain complete control of a planet, and what control you do achieve would slip away.
...Like the once great British Empire, who lost all it's colonies.
...Like the USSR, now fragmented.
...Like Israel, who dispite rediculous armament and an army so large it could not support it without foreign intervention - is in the midst of the worst crisis it has faced since the 70's.
So I say to heck with realism - we're looking for fun here. I want to see yellow unhappy workers slowly turning blue. Adding too much realism would make the game depressing. Besides, a game does not need to be realistic to be great - like chess.
P.S. That was the last time I mention real-world issures in a space game forum. Sorry.
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Comrade Tribune
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Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Straybow
I agree with Comrade T. Sean Penn has gone to Iraq and personally seen that Iraq doesn't have any chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons programs and materials. The world is safe. 
Next, we should send the Baldwins to make peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Why don't all the world's leaders realize how easy this is? Oh, of course! They've all been mind-controlled! See, telepathy is totally realistic and fun. |
The proof for mind control consists in the fact that no one is concerned with the chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons that the United States have (not: are trying to have).
Comparing the United States to Iraq, it is clear who is a threat, and who isnīt.
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10-12-2002 06:14
The trait could have been weakened a bit (or other traits strenghtened), instead of simply abolishing something that is actually plausible. Why should not somewhere evolve a race with strong hypnotical powers? This is not far-fetched at all.
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