10-12-2002 09:06									#1
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Never do the AI favours, as in give them techs for free when there way behind, just plain don't give the other nations s**t.

The rest of u's might have already figured this out but i thought i might be the mister nice guy on the street and hand out presents like i was santa claus.
See heres the story: Warlord ,large map split into two quite nice continents, me as rome. Well in the early game i was way ahead of everybody on my continent in tech and well everything, so i decided i would give stuff away to the neighbouring nations just to help them along the road to being decent rivals, thinking at the same time that i would have buddies for if i ever fall behind. So all was sweet, i was King of the parking lot and nobody would fight me (except for one minor stint with Germany who were quickly exterminated by my legions, which triggered my GA). after this i start laxing back and building up my infrastructure and buildings. I build the great lighthouse and go for a ticky tour around. met all the other nations on the neighbouring continent when i discover the tricky little route over there, make contact and discover i'm a little behind them. Not to worry traded contacts, maps etc to catch a little up and thought my buddies on my continent will repay the debt of tech that i gave them. Well, guess who decided who wasn't worth it ne more and wanted stupid amounts of cash and some cases nothing would change their minds at all. So at the moment i'm brooding decidin wether i should kill them all and and kill everything and string each leader up to the nearest street lamp (when there invented of course).

Sorry just wanted to go on about the ill manners of the computer.
Also i think i need help in my games of civ3 as well its only warlord and i'm losing and i read stories about how u guys get in front of the AI well before where i am up to (just prior to industrial age with about 1/4 of the other civs there already) in like emperor and so on. SO PLEASE HELP ME. I'll post a save if people want a look, and somebody tells me how.

Thanks

	10-12-2002 09:17									#2
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99.9998% of the time, I play as Rome, and since Rome has an early UU, I'm basicly stuck for the rest of the game. In comes Germany, most people destroy Germany ASAP, I however, don't.

I keep ol' Bissy happy by giving him some free gold and such. I basicly cuttle up to Germany, then when he researches his Panzers... well, I sign a MPP and go to war, with German Panzers backing me up.

So giving away tributes do have it's moments.

	10-12-2002 10:15									#3
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You actually trust Bismarck???


Remember, a major fault in the AI is it is a mere bean-counter; there is no attempt to simulate the human factor. Giving away freebies does not make you friends down the line, although it may placate a civ temporarily.

	10-12-2002 10:20									#4
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You know those times when the AI, supposedly at peace with you, suddenly moves huge stacks of units towards your cities... then when you tell them to move, they declare war?

Well, I was playing the Indians, and when the Chinese came in with massed Riders towards a size 3 jungle border city (originally Japanese, I just conquered it) I knew what was coming. I decided to give the city to the Chinese as a gift and see what happened. Indeed, their attitude went immediately to Polite (from annoyed) and they never attacked me again, the entire game.

	10-12-2002 10:21									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle You actually trust Bismarck???

Bismark is just as trustworthy as any other civ, he's just more...agressive.

	10-12-2002 13:56									#6
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Flip McWho post a save and people will look at it. I would say with out a peek that if you are falling behind at Warlord, you should look at Crackers thread on CFC on starting moves.
Most of the time, not making the best use of the tiles you have is the culprit. If you automate workers early in the game, they like to waste moves and irrigate too much.
The AI can not out Rex or out produce you if you have a decent starting location and make the best use of the workers and citizens.
Benevolence is a matter of taste and styles. I do not do it, but others do and it is fine.
Another issue that can hurt you is the research choices that you make, but if you get the production right at Warlord the rest is not a big factor. It will be at Monarch and above as you will not be getting any bonus to use and the AI will (except against barbs until Deity).

	10-12-2002 15:21									#7
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Thanks all for ur replys.

I will go take a peek at that thread at CFC thanks vxma1. It must be my early early game all though i was king muck untill i met the other continent. I usually build settlers until i've settled all the land i want, and when i'm not building settlers i'm building military units, so i'm usually strong then. However i let that fall away usually after a short skirmish causes a few casualties, i start to concentrate on cultural build up instead. I really only build up militarily when a war is occuring or i'm preparing for one. It might be research (i have a bad habit of trying to research every tech or trade for every tech), though i'm starting to fix that because now i'm gonna beeline straight for great library in every game.

quote: You know those times when the AI, supposedly at peace with you, suddenly moves huge stacks of units towards your cities... then when you tell them to move, they declare war?

Tell me about it. England did that to me in this game. We were at peace, ROP, Polite all that then bam a huge pile of mostly obsolete units go next door to one of my weaker cities and next turn i'm recieving refugees going on about hoards of english units. I can't get there to exact revenge as France has cancelled our ROP, which has mind u been in place since like half way through the ancient age and france cuts our continent in half. I've got no salt pepper with a war with england so that might mean i go to war with greece. Hey all i want to do is build.

Actually speaking of Enlgand, it was quite funny. In a previous game they fortified one archer outside one of my core cities for many a turn until i thought lets get rid of this sucker, so i called liz up and told her to piss off, and yep she declared war. Neway alls good as i watch this spearman head off on a tangent to my borders, i'm curious now as to where this spearman is going. About ten turns later he plops himself on my only source of iron and then sets out to pillage the road. Well i shake my head in awe to a actually very intelligent move by the ai.

quote: although it may placate a civ temporarily.

Not neccesarily true. Another game (see most of my games last untill about the middle ages, though this roman one at the mo seems its gonna last till the end) i was romans again and the germans where my next door neighbours. Well we have a minor skirmish and i sue for piece after only pillaging their road to their one luxury. Then about twenty turns later they make moves towards one of my cities. Seen as i'm not ready for war i give them a free tech, relations going up from annoyed to polite. Bam next turn i lose a city. Sometimes i keep looking behind me for that knife when i play this game. . I do agree with what u say about the ai being only a bean counter, though sometimes u do wonder if the computer is coming alive.

Thanks

	10-12-2002 15:38									#8
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The AI has a very long memory for bad deeds by you and a rather short term memory for good deeds. I never give them anything unless I will profit from it in some way. Bribe someone to join you in a war or pay tribute to some other who are about to attack you are two good examples. I will also give techs or resources to allies when they are fighting(and loosing) a common enemy. I may also give resources and techs to AI's that fight stronger neighbours. A bit like uncle Sam giving stingers to the mujahedin in the 80's.

I've also read that others here tries to bribe AI's before UN votes, smart, if it works.

It boils down to this. If it will benefit me, fine. If it will hurt someone else, good. If not, why bother.

	10-12-2002 18:41									#9
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Check out the 'poly strategy forum for some great threads on early moves etc. Theseus was kind enough to index some of the better strat threads:
http://www.apolyton.com/forums/show...&threadid=59216

As for giving out techs, I only do it to prop up a down and out Civ that is at war with one of my rivals (the bigger AI civs). For instance, if my rival is in the Industrial Age and attacks some backward Middle Age Civ, I'll give the Middle Age Civ any techs that will help him defend his territory (such as Nationalism...).

Other than that, I hold on to my techs unless I can get a fair amount of money for them. And I never give them to my neighbors.

	10-12-2002 20:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle You actually trust Bismarck??? Remember, a major fault in the AI is it is a mere bean-counter; there is no attempt to simulate the human factor. Giving away freebies does not make you friends down the line, although it may placate a civ temporarily.

So long as I get his panzers, I'll go to any length. They have been the key to victory many times. Every 20 turns or so, I give him 100 free gold, and perhaps some lame tech.

	10-12-2002 23:22									#11
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Flip McWho I downloaded the sav and it got an error loading with PTW. I tried Civ3 and the game disappeared? What version is it from and what patch?

	11-12-2002 03:29									#12
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ummm 1.29f civ3 vanilla.

	11-12-2002 03:33									#13
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Actually i sometimes have trouble loading my saves aswell. However i discovered that it works perfectly fine if i load a new game then load that one. Quite weird.

	11-12-2002 13:02									#14
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I only give from the goodness of my heart, never expecting anything in return.

But the AI never does any charity work?!

	12-12-2002 03:56									#15
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interesting game... you have managed to gain an extensive amount of territory without war, but your game is plagued by poor early game dicitions.

first off, your cities are to far away from eachother. Do not be afraid to let your cities radii overlap. For instance, there is am unused cow between antium and rome. antium should be closer and should have that cow in its radius. there are 2 unused shield-grasslands near pisea, another mistake...

the next mistake you made is letting productive cities go to waste. Berlin is in a great city spot, but does not even have a courthouse yet??? you should have rushed one a LONG time ago, and then gone strait for a forbidden palace. currently, the formar german territory is of no use at all exept for trading furs...
you have other cities on long hopeless jurneys to build universities or cathedrals or knights which will finish in about 40 turns... and Viei, with 4 cows... is building wealth???? your super unproductive cities should do workers, settlers and wealth!! viei should build the knights.
viei is also the sort of city you would actually build farther from your capitol, it should be built one square further to have 6 cows(a few wasted grassland squares are worth it).
and since viei is more centralized, you should have rebuilt your palace in it.
you also have many squares in your cities(like rome for instance) that are not fully developed, meaning no roads or mines... or irragation...

perhaps your biggest mistake is how well you have defended your cities. in a repblic, you can NOT have 3 units defending rome, which isnt even on a boarder. and 2 units defending most other cities. you should have maby 2 on boarder cities and 0-1 in others. especially since you arent really at war and havent been except with germany.

another tip is to sell those barracks sitting in most your cities. you have sun tsu, so there is no need to waste gold every turn on barracks that dont do anything.





interestingly, you are only behind because the other continent has less civs on it but has as much territory. the way to reverse this it to conquer your nehbors, (greece, france) that should raise your score

	12-12-2002 05:58									#16
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Thanks zorbop, i needed that analysis. I gain the extensive amount of territory through placing cities far out to where i want my eventual borders to be and backfilling as i crank out settlers.

I don't like to overlap radii, don't know why it just feels like a waste of resources. Although i do remember pondering over that decision to plant antuim where it is.

Do courthouses really lessen corruption that much. I hate waiting for the forbiddin palace to be built if its gonna take 100-200 turns. What other buildings do so?

I like to have all buildings in as many cities as possible, thats a trait carried over from civ2, i'm currently producing wealth because they have nothing left to build (culturally). I try to stick to building military units only when they are needed (eg war).

Thats also why there are so many defensive units. Veii and the other big producers had nothing to produce at one stage so were cranking out defensive units. Again one/two defenders per city is another trait carried over from civ2. I don't like the thought of my cities being able to be overrun in not stuff all time.

Thanks for the analysis though. I really need some extra help in my game. I'm gonna stick with this game and play it till i finish, it'll be the first game i have ever finished. Then i'll start again and work on a good start so i can move up to regent and so on.

Thanks.

	12-12-2002 06:40									#17
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Actually i'll update on where i'm up to so far.

Well i reloaded back to before the english attacked me.

The war on the other continent against Japan has finished with mainly India and Babylon taking cities with one or two overrun by the chinese. I planted a city in a spot that had a japanes city (Nara, i think) that was razed just so i had a basing point for ne future operations on that continent. A couple of turns later India asks for a MPP and i agree. A couple of turns after that suicidal russia decides to declare war on me, quickly overtaking one city and then stagnating as i grind over their territory and India is busy getting everybody to declare war on russia. India also signs a MPP with france so it looks like the world is gonna be filled with alliances soon. India is actually at gracious with me (automatic with MPP?) but still won't trade reasonably. Infact the only change is instead of saying a straight no he says gives us 625gold and 35gpt and we'll give u Physics.

Its starting to really turn into an interesting game and hopefully will last as one. I wanna see the world get involved in a weblike tangle of MPPs and some backstabbing and some world wars soon.

Just a couple of quick questions.
1) With India in a MPP with me (signed first) and then one signed with France. If i declare war on France will he back me or France? Aggressor of Defender?
1a) Infact how does the MPP system work?

2)Is it worth switching to Democracy? Or is republic good enough?

And keep the advice coming from my save.

Thanks

	12-12-2002 07:10									#18
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Stick with republic. The turns of anarchy for a non-religious civ are too painful, and republic will not go crazy if you go to war.

	12-12-2002 08:19									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Its starting to really turn into an interesting game and hopefully will last as one. I wanna see the world get involved in a weblike tangle of MPPs and some backstabbing and some world wars soon.

i started up a game (only at Chieftain) to fiddle about with diplomacy and gifts etc.

I waited until 2 AI civs went to war then reduced my science and luxuries to nil and started dishing out gold for the express purpose of starting a world war involving everyone except me.

I gave gold to one combatant which next turn had a MPP or alliance with another civ which then of course joined the war. That other civ might then pay another civ to join the war.
I then give money to the civ which is fighting two civs with similar results.
I notice another unrelated war had broken out between two other civs. I give them money with similar results. After a few more gifts it seemed everyone was at war with everyone (the situation was so complicated I could no longer keep track of who was fighting who. I think my civ was the only one not involved in the carnage. Many civs were at war with several civs.

I think I need to study diplomacy and gift giving. It has such interesting potential.

	12-12-2002 09:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Thats also why there are so many defensive units. Veii and the other big producers had nothing to produce at one stage so were cranking out defensive units. Again one/two defenders per city is another trait carried over from civ2. I don't like the thought of my cities being able to be overrun in not stuff all time. Thanks.

sorry i didnt tell you why you cant have so many defensive units. you are wasting money on them every turn! with monarch it is okay... but in repubs you have to pay for every single one of those, every turn....

and coarthouses do lower corruption and waste quite a bit. it is either 50% or 75% less...

i have developed an interesting expantion strategy, a combonation of yours and some others. after you have your capitol and 1-2 other strong cities, you start sending settlers far away, like you did... right next to your enemies capitol, squeezing them in (you actually did a reall good job at that). but then you really have to fill in the borders tightly.. even overlaping.

here is why- it wont really effect anything until hospitles, right, more than half way through the game. in the early game, after establishing boarders, squeezing cities in tightly means you get more cities in your territory.
lets say you get 5 more cities in, and they get only 10 production each. then lets say it lasts 200 turns till industrial age, that is 2000 shields per city, totalling to 10000 shields!

	12-12-2002 14:01									#21
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If you want help in deciding the size of your army, ask your military advisor(F3). He will tell you if your army is weaker/stronger/similar to your opponents. Generally, a weaker neighbour will not attack you that often but if he is stronger then it is smart to increase the size of your army. Having a bigger army is more expensive but usually much cheaper than waging war.

	12-12-2002 14:25									#22
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I do check occassionally with my advisors, usually every ten turns i'll have a business meeting and check out whats what. At the mo everybody is pretty much weaker than me, except Babylon who is equal, he's also number 2 in the score list, by about 1 point. I might take him out next, before he gets to much of a hassle. That leaves me and my MPP buddy (india) in #'s 1(me) and 2(india).

At the moment war for me is really easy and cheap. I produce about 1 calvarly almost every 3 turns and alot of cities just went into WLTKD, and i've been at war for about 10 turns + so i'm expecting war weariness to start taking its toll. I'm also earning about 40gpt aswell (could be 100 if i sacrifice 2 turns of science). Hopefully i'll wipe mother russia of the map before then.

Thanks.

	13-12-2002 14:46									#23
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You should try playing at Regenet level at least next game. The AI will keep you on your toes a lot better as far as your city building (and all Civs are on equal footing with you ), because when you are weak militarily they'll know it and come after you with a great viciousness!

Trade tech for tech or when it is demanded from you by that Civ you know can stomp through your defenses.