11-12-2002 03:42									#1
	Open Discussion....Canned Strategies - Conjectural Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We're taking a measured approach with adding this stuff in....if we decide to add it in....at this point, no firm decision about that has been made (we're forcing ourself to take an increasingly harder look at ANYTHING--groovy-sounding or not--we add to the framework....there's such a thing as too much, so there's no guarantee that this will make the final cut, BUT....I think it's a good idea, and well worth exploring, so here's the latest iteration of it, posted here for open discussion.

Note the conspicuous absense of Level 2 strategies.....that was intentional for the time being, on the thinking that, what we need is something fairly small and manageable that we can maybe code and try to see how it plays, and if it works like we want it, we can build on it....if not, then it would be counter-productive to build a hellishly large, complex table of strategic interactions, only to rip it back out if we don't like what it does for the game....so we're starting simple....we're starting small, and here's what we've got so far:

-=Vel=-

	11-12-2002 03:45									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Assessing Enemy Strength
In order to make intelligent decisions about what sort of strategy will work best, enemy troop information is of vital importance, and so, scouting becomes even more important than ever. There are a variety of ways to scout out the enemy in advance, including espionage on the province in question, and magic, but I propose that we add a military scouting option in as well....

The Skirmish
Skrimishing means that you don't full-scale invade the province. Rather, you send pickets and feelers from your ranks to scope things out and test the enemy's defenses.

When you skirmish, you lose a number of troops equal to the defender's Defensive Value, and he loses a number of troops equal to YOUR defensive value. Troop losses always start at tier three, and work their way up the ladder, but are random inside the tier (ie, if you have mercs and infantry on tier three, and skirmish, than any losses you take will pull randomly from infantry and mercs first).
* Note that because you are not actually entering the province in-force, even if your skirmish kills off all the defenders, you will NOT take the province. Your scouts will simply return back to you and report their findings.

Benefits of skirmishing
You gain knowledge of fortification level in the province you skirmished into

You gain some knowledge of enemy troop strength (based on your own losses, you can derive some estimate of total troop strength)

You gain knowledge of what "troop categories" are present

"Sire, our scouts took losses amounting to 4 units. We have discovered that the enemy force contains a mix of Cavalry, Archers, Mercenaries, and Siege Equipment."

Based on this information, and knowing the composition of your own army, you will then arrive at a better understanding of what strategies might be favorable to employ going in with a full-scale attack.

How it works
So....what happens now when you engage in battle is as follows:

You enter the province, and are presented with the option to cast a battle spell. This is your only opportunity to cast, and only one spell may be cast, but depending on the flow and duration of the battle, additional opportunities may arise.

After casting or passing, a selection menu of strategic options available, and descriptions of what those options mean in game terms.

Behind the scenes, your opponent is also selecting a canned strategy.

Neither you nor your opponent can see the other's troop strength at this time, although the defender gains the benefits of information as though he had skirmished the round before (you are, after all, traipsing through his territory), so some information might be displayed to the defender, regarding the attacker's troop strength. Also, if the army launching the attack has skirmished into the province they are now attacking into, then the information gleaned by the skirmish regarding the enemy province will be displayed here, during the strategy selection phase. This information has a "shelf life" of only one turn (the turn following the skirmish), so unless you attack immediately after skirmishing, there will be no information displayed here....you will simply be attacking blind).

Strategies are selected by both sides, and cross referenced to give a Combat Modifier (described below).

Combat begins.

Note that combat will pause at the conclusion of the first round, and present the player with three options:
"Withdraw," "Continue for another round" or "Continue to the end of Battle".

Choosing withdraw will remove your army from the province, making you subject to the "parting shot" rules described in the core rules document.

Choosing Continue for another round will move combat to round two, using the same modifiers, and at the end of the round, you will again be prompted.

Choosing Continue to the end of battle will auto-resolve the combat using the current settings.
* - This is actually an over-simplification, as some strategic interactions allow for additional changes to strategy, and in this case, the combat would occur until it was time to prompt you again to see if you wished to adjust your strategy.

If you have a great leader present, you will see a fourth button for "Change Orders."

Pressing this will bring up the "Tier orders" that we see currently in the combat window, and allow you to shift orders and targets for your various troop types away from the standard "canned" strategy.

These orders have a base 20% chance of not being received. 10% if your GL has one special skill, and 5% if the GL leading the army has 2+ skills.

This allows armies with great leaders a great deal of control and finesse over the battlefield, if such control is needed or desired.

With all that in mind, here are the canned strategies, and how they are defined:

Level One Strategies
Advance
Flank
Hold
Overrun

Strategy Descriptions as they appear in-game
Advance - This is a measured, organized, general push into enemy territory. While not particularly powerful, it's main strength lies in its flexibility, and in your ability to shift gears in response to enemy actions.

Flank - The age-old classic, as timeless as it is effective. Out-maneuver your opponent, catch an exposed flank, decimate his army.

Hold - Generally describes an entrenched or dug-in position, it is understood that armies with orders to hold a particular piece of ground are ordered to do so at all costs, and will not be swayed from their course, or lured away from the ground they seek to protect.

Overrun - A full-out (some might say reckless) charge across the battlefield. This is pure offense and no defense whatsoever, and the goal is to completely disrupt your enemy by hitting him hard and fast, and never letting up on the pressure.

Strategy Descriptions - Tier Orders
Attack: Archers - Standard; Siege Engines - Standard; Cavalry - Charging

Flank: Archers - Precision; Siege Engines - Precision; Cavalry - Charging on round one, with standard attack orders issued for round three and beyond.

Hold: Archers - Standard, Siege Engines - Precision; Cavalry - Standard

Overrun: Archers - Standard; Siege Engines; Standard; Cavalry - Charging

Targeting Preferences
For units set to "Precision," the following are the automatic targeting preferences that units will use (units set to "standard" see their casualties inflicted randomly on the enemy army):

If you are attacking
Siege Engines will automatically target fortifications before anything else.

If there are no fortifications, or after existing fortifications are gone, then siege engines will have the same priorities as Archers.

Archers in an attacker's army will target the enemy unit(s) with the highest defense rating on the map, regardless of tier.

If you are defending

Obviously, your siege engines will leave your fortifications alone. Archers and Siege engines both target the unit(s) with the highest attack value, regardless of what combat tier he's on.

Note: In the case of an army containing a Great Leader, it is possible, after the first round of a given combat, to attempt to change tier orders, and in this case, you may assign a specific troop type as a precision target (from a dropdown list of troop types in the enemy's army). This allows you to zero in on a particular type of troop and eliminate the threat that unit type represents to your army).

Initiative
The concept of Battlefield initiative is abstracted in this version of the "strategy selection" idea, and the concept of initiative itself is an abstraction of a number of battlefield variables, not the least of which include scouting the terrain and disposition of the enemy, and quality of leadership on both sides. For this iteration, however, begin with the notion that Armies start out on an even footing. As the battle unfolds, the player with the better leadership and/or superior initial strategy selection (based on the--sometimes sketchy--information available at the start of the battle) will rise to the surface, and in this way, each battle dynamic creates its own initiative. At least….that's how I hope it works!

(to be continued)

Last edited by Velociryx on 12-12-2002 at 02:40

	11-12-2002 03:46									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Strategic Interactions:
Advance - Advance: Two cautiously advancing armies amounts to a sharp skirmish which takes up two of the six battle rounds (see skirmish rules regarding casualties, double the baseline numbers, and begin round three of battle with both sides selecting new strategies. Both sides also get another opportunity to use battle magic). If either side contains a leader, then that side has a 50% chance (+10% per skill that the leader possesses) of being able to change strategy one round sooner. This faster response can be utterly devastating. Also, if either side has a leader, then that side will inflict relatively more casualties on the other in the skirmish (presence of a leader = +1 casualty, with an additional +1 casualty per skill that the leader possesses).

Advance - Flank: Your archers gain an additional volley of fire on "round zero" (complex maneuvers on the part of your enemy). All of your troops suffer a penalty of -2 to their A/D values, and your army's defensive factor is reduced by 40%. Enemy archers have double normal chances for precision strikes (as they attack the more vulnerable flanks of your army), and enemy Infantry gain the "Initiative" special on round one (and only on round one) of the battle. This strategic interaction lasts three combat rounds, and at the conclusion of three rounds, each side may re-select strategies. The duration of this strategic interaction is modified by -1 round if you have a leader in your force, and by another -1 for each skill your leader has. It's length is increased by +1 if enemy force contains a leader, and an additional +1 for each skill enemy leader has.
Note: If enemy force contains a leader, then all archer attacks are made at an additional +1 to their A/D values, and all other troops in enemy army gain +2 to their A/D values.

Advance - Hold: Amounts to a skirmish contact only. You are advancing cautiously in the face of an enemy that will not come out to meet you. See skirmish rules for combat losses, and both sides may re-select strategy next round. Both sides also get another opportunity to use battle magic. Also, if either side has a leader, then that side will inflict relatively more casualties on the other in the skirmish (presence of a leader = +1 casualty, with an additional +1 casualty per skill that the leader possesses). Option to withdraw vanishes for your enemy.

Advance - Overrun: Cautious advance and line flexibility on your part enables you to meet the enemy on more than equal ground. Your force sees gains in Defensive value equal to what your enemy loses (fluid adaptation on your part). Additionally, because of your measured, careful approach, all your Infantry gain "initiative" on round one (and ONLY on round one) of the combat, and your cavalry may execute a charge on round one (ie - for the duration of this strategic interaction, odd-numbered rounds are the charge rounds, and even-numbered rounds are the "off" rounds). Opponent loses 100% of his Defensive Factor (50% if enemy leader is present), and gains +4 to all his A/D values. Option to withdraw vanishes for enemy army for the duration of this strategic interaction. Archers and Siege engines on both sides may only fire on round one of this strategic interaction (and of course, archers get their usual "round zero" volley. Duration of this strategic interaction is 3 rounds, +1 if you have a leader, and +1 per skill your leader has, -1 in the presence of an enemy leader, and +- per skill enemy leader has (to a minimum of one). At the end of this strategic interaction, new strategies may be selected by both sides, and if desired, additional battle magic used.

Flank - Advance: Enemy archers gain an additional volley of fire on "round zero" (complex maneuvers on your part). All enemy troops suffer a penalty of -2 to their A/D values, and enemy army's defensive factor is reduced by 40%. Your archers have double normal chances for precision strikes (as they attack the more vulnerable flanks of your army), and your Infantry gain the "Initiative" special on round one (and only on round one) of the battle. This strategic interaction lasts three combat rounds, and at the conclusion of three rounds, each side may re-select strategies. The duration of this strategic interaction is modified by +1 if your force contains a leader, and an additional +1 for each skill your leader has. The duration of this interaction is reduced by -1 round if the enemy has a leader in his force, and by another -1 for each skill enemy leader has.
Note: If your force contains a leader, then all archer attacks are made at an additional +1 to their A/D values, and all other troops in your army gain +2 to their A/D values.

Flank - Flank: The maneuvers of you and your opponent essentially negate each other, though they DO take up a good deal of everyone's time. Treat this interaction as a sharp skirmish that takes up two (2) rounds of battle. See skirmish rules for details on losses incurred, double the baseline numbers, and begin round three with both sides re-selecting strategy. Both sides also get another opportunity to use battle magic. If either side contains a leader, then that side has a 50% chance (+10% per skill that the leader possesses) of being able to change strategy one round sooner. This faster response can be utterly devastating. Also, if either side has a leader, then that side will inflict relatively more casualties on the other in the skirmish (presence of a leader = +2 casualties, with an additional +1 casualty per skill that the leader possesses).

Flank - Hold: Enemy entrenched army gains +50% to its Defensive Rating (doubled if an enemy leader is present), and gains an additional round zero volley with its archers (prepared firing positions). All enemy units gain +1 to their A/D values (entrenched positions). Your infantry gain the "initiative" special during round one (and ONLY round one) of this interaction, and all your archer precision strikes have double normal chances of success (shooting fish in a barrel). Note: If flanking force contains a leader, then all its archer attacks are made at an additional +1 to their A/D values, and all other troops in flanking army gain +2 to their A/D values. Option to withdraw from combat vanishes for your opponent.

Flank - Overrun: Enemy's Defensive Factor drops to zero, and all enemy troops gain +4 to their A/D values. Enemy gains an additional round zero volley against you (complex maneuvers on your part), and the speed and ferocity of enemy attack catches your troops scattered and out of position (your forces suffer an across the board -2 to their A/D values. Archers and siege engines on both sides are unable to attack after round one, though during round one, your archers will see double normal chances for precision strikes. Option to withdraw for enemy vanishes entirely. Duration of this strategic interaction is 4 rounds, -2 if you have a leader, and -1 per skill your leader has, +1 in the presence of an enemy leader, and +1 per skill enemy leader has (to a minimum of one). At the end of this strategic interaction, new strategies may be selected by both sides, and if desired, additional battle magic used. If there is an enemy leader present, then enemy army loses 50% of Defensive Factor, instead of seeing it drop to zero.

	11-12-2002 03:47									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hold - Advance: Amounts to a skirmish contact only. Your opponent is advancing cautiously, and you have no particular interest in moving. See skirmish rules for combat losses, and both sides may re-select strategy next round. Both sides also get another opportunity to use battle magic. Also, if either side has a leader, then that side will inflict relatively more casualties on the other in the skirmish (presence of a leader = +1 casualty, with an additional +1 casualty per skill that the leader possesses). Not that the intensity of the contact would warrant it, but you may not withdraw from this strategic interaction

Hold - Flank: You gain +50% to your Defensive Rating, and you gain an additional round zero volley with your archers (prepared firing positions). All units you control gain +1 to their A/D values (entrenched positions). If you have a Leader present, your Defensive Factor is doubled. Enemy infantry gain the "initiative" special during round one (and ONLY round one) of this interaction, and all enemy archer precision strikes have double normal chances of success (shooting fish in a barrel). Note: If flanking force contains a leader, then all its archer attacks are made at an additional +1 to their A/D values, and all other troops in flanking army gain +2 to their A/D values. Option to withdraw vanishes for you.

Hold - Hold: No combat occurs this round (you're waiting for him, he's waiting for you, and there's a whole lot of nothing going on!). A body at rest tends to remain at rest, however, and so there is only a 40% chance that your army will be prodded into action next round (+15% if you have a leader present, +10% for each skill that leader possesses). Until your army decides to move though, the rounds tick by with total inactivity. (Each round, you may attempt to re-select strategy, but there's no guarantee that it will be successful--see % above. Each round, you also have the opportunity to use battle magic.)

Hold - Overrun: You gain +50% to your Defensive Rating, and you gain an additional round zero volley with your archers (prepared firing positions). All Infantry you control gain the "Initiative" special (on round one, and ONLY on round one) of combat (entrenched positions, enabling you to control the flow of battle….at least initially). If you have a Leader present, your Defensive Factor is doubled. Archers and siege engines from both sides may only fire on round one (and of course, archers may fire on "round zero" as well). Both sides lose the option to withdraw from combat, and both sides lose the option to re-select strategy. This is the classic immovable object vs. irresistible force confrontation.
Your opponent loses his Defensive Rating entirely, but gains +4 on all his A/D values. Also note that if enemy army contains a leader, then that army's defensive factor will be reduced by 50%, rather than being eliminated.

Overrun - Advance: Cautious advance and line flexibility on the part of your enemy enables him to meet you on more than equal ground. Enemy force sees gains in Defensive value equal to what you lose (fluid adaptation). Additionally, because of enemy's careful approach, all enemy Infantry gain "initiative" on round one (and ONLY on round one) of the combat, and enemy cavalry may execute a charge on round one (ie - for the duration of this strategic interaction, odd-numbered rounds are the charge rounds, and even-numbered rounds are the "off" rounds). You lose 100% of your Defensive Factor (50% if enemy leader is present), and gain +4 to all your A/D values. Option to withdraw vanishes for your army for the duration of this strategic interaction. Archers and Siege engines on both sides may only fire on round one of this strategic interaction (and of course, archers get their usual "round zero" volley. Duration of this strategic interaction is 3 rounds, -1 if you have a leader, and -1 per skill your leader has, +1 in the presence of an enemy leader, and +1 per skill enemy leader has (to a minimum of one). At the end of this strategic interaction, new strategies may be selected by both sides, and if desired, additional battle magic used.

Overrun - Flank: Your army's Defensive Factor drops to zero (50% if you have a leader present in your army), and all troops under your command gain +4 to their A/D values. You gain an additional round zero volley against the flanker (complex maneuvers on his part), and the speed and ferocity of your attack catches his troops scattered and out of position (enemy forces suffer an across the board -2 to their A/D values. Archers and siege engines on both sides are unable to attack after round one, though during round one, enemy's archers will see double normal chances for precision strikes. Option to withdraw for you vanishes entirely. Duration of this strategic interaction is 4 rounds, +1 if you have a leader, and +1 per skill your leader has, -2 in the presence of an enemy leader, and -1 per skill enemy leader has (to a minimum of one). At the end of this strategic interaction, new strategies may be selected by both sides, and if desired, additional battle magic used.

Overrun - Hold: Enemy gains +50% to his Defensive Rating, and an additional round zero volley with his archers (prepared firing positions). All enemy infantry gain the "Initiative" special (on round one, and ONLY on round one) of combat (entrenched positions, enabling him to control the flow of battle….at least initially). If enemy leader is present, the army's Defensive Factor is doubled. Archers and siege engines from both sides may only fire on round one (and of course, archers may fire on "round zero" as well). Both sides lose the option to withdraw from combat, and both sides lose the option to re-select strategy. This is the classic irresistible force vs. immovable object confrontation.
You lose your Defensive Rating entirely, but gains +4 on all your A/D values. Also note that if your army contains a leader, then that army's defensive factor will be reduced by 50%, rather than being eliminated.

Overrun - Overrun: Both sides see their A/D values increase by +8, and their Defensive Factor vanish entirely (whether they have a leader or not). Option to withdraw for both sides vanishes entirely. This is a tooth-and-nail, total bloodbath fight. Neither side may make tier order modifications of any kind, and Archers/Siege Engines may ONLY fire on round one of the battle (archers also get their usual "round zero" volley).

Final Notes
Maximum Combat Duration
Combats lasting more than six rounds end in a default victory for the defender. Attacker's army is automatically sent back to the province he attacked from (subject to the "parting shot" rules in the core rules document). The attacker may try again on the following turn, but for the moment, the province in question is safe. Note that this occurs regardless of what strategy is selected (even if the selected strategy does not allow for between-turn withdrawls. At this point, the armies are exhausted and WILL break contact).
* Note that depending on the flow of the combat, some of the strategic interactions call for durations that may last beyond the sixth round of combat, and in those cases, anything beyond the sixth combat round is simply ignored. After six rounds, regardless of what the two forces are doing, they will break contact.

Comments and discussion are welcomed, as always!

-=Vel=-

	11-12-2002 07:14									#5
	Remove this text

Firstly. Wow. pretty comprehensive there.
A few things that come to mind right off the bat :-

(1) Morale (Or is this dealt with elsewhere?). Does it have any effect on which strategies can be adopted?
ie: Very low => cannot use the overrun (or maybe the hold?) options, unless accompanied by a leader perhaps? Charisma/Personality (as a characteristic) could also be important here. The Patton and Custer types with bonuses to Overrun attacks and the Rommels to flank/maneuver?

(2) Hold-Overrun. Doubling a defensive rating with a leader present (some kind of a combat engineer I guess?) sounds unbalancing. (Please note here though that I'm not entirely sure what this means in terms of game mechanics - Doubling a units defense value in Civ2 for example, makes a huge difference).
Off the top of my head I'd have thought a leader on the overrunning side might be more than able to counteract this (see above) ... ??

(3) Any options on some sort of raiding attack? Or Recce in force? - doesn't occupy the full combat duration perhaps - just a quick hit-and-fade attack for a couple of turns. Some sort of half strength overrun against an unprepared position? Requires a high initiative (surprise) to execute?

	11-12-2002 08:20									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, these are just the "level one" or basic attacks, so I think that's why you don't see more complex maneuvers in here. I know Vel has mentioned some more canned strats at our forums, but I'm not a combat system expert so I can't fill you in on details.

	11-12-2002 08:56									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hey guys! Glad you're digging it so far!

The essence of what I wanted to create here was a modifiable "rock-paper-scissors" approach (flank beats advance, advance beats overrun, overrun beats flank), with Hold somewhere in the middle.

And just as a note, the Defensive Factor is, on the one hand, not nearly as potent as Civ-style defense ratings, and on the other, more subtle, and potentially more devasting (in the face of a certain kind of army).

(Defensive Factor is equal to the sum-total of the army's defensive strengths of its units, divided by twenty....this total represents some number of "phantom hits" that the army can absorb when being attacked by enemy infantry units (infantry, pikemen, and skirmishers) before sustaining actual troop losses.

So....some initial observations:

An overrun attack is best performed by an army heavy on Infantry and Cavalry. Archers and Siege engines in an overruning army will be of limited value, since they'll only be able to fire the "round zero" volley, and on the first round. Nonetheless, a well balanced army CAN BE successful performing an overrun, if the opening volley and round one archer attacks deal out significant damage (this, coupled with the increase in A/D values of the grunts on the field can end a fight very quickly). So...overrun would be a good strategy for rushers (infantry and mercenary-heavy armies), or for larger, well-balanced armies if the attacking player has some good combat spells to boost his archers' effectiveness while they are useful.

A flank almost requires an archer-heavy army to be effective....the main advantage of this strategy lies in the fact that archers will plink away at the most threatening defenders with a good chance of knocking them out of commission. And any army containing a Leader would make an excellent choice for flanking operations, given the added bonus to that army's units.

Hold: GREAT for a pike-heavy force, though any infantry heavy force will see solid gains. While both flank and overrun attacks can deal out solid, steady damage to the holding force, it's main advantage lies in the fact that it gets a right comfortable defensive advantage vs. enemy infantry based troops. Holding in the face of a cavalry-heavy army will net you relatively little (since cavs ignore Defensive Factor anyway), but you can be very hard to hurt if you're squared off against an infantry heavy force. The main drawback is that cavalry are set to standard (charging would draw them away from the held ground), so the Hold option becomes even more powerful if executed by a leader (who can change the orders of the cavalry if needed).

Advance is relatively weaker than the others, but is the spoiler attack of the overrun. An advance executed by an army containing a great leader is a tremendously good setup for a devastating kill....provided you can keep your army in reasonably good enough shape to shift strategies to something devastating to whatever strategy your opponent is using. (example: if you do not know what sort of attack your opponent will be doing, you could always lead off with a general advance, see his strategy and if, say, for example, he's flanking, then he'll carry the early rounds (flank beats advance), but with a leader in your force, you stand an excellent chance of being able to shift gears, into say, an overrun, and blow his doors off).

In looking back over the duration numbers tho, I see that I still have some tweaking to do in that regard.....will continue my editing tomorrow!

Morale: An excellent thought, and one that we'll definitely be including in later releases of CB (see the latest combat thread), but for the moment, morale is somewhat abstracted in-game (can't recruit any troops from a province till that province's loyalty is high enough, and we make the blanket assumption that the loyalty and morale of the troops recruited is a given). I can't wait to start playing with that stuff tho!

Still, if we opt for this model, I'll see if there's a way I can approximate this effect by playing with % chances of success in issuing certain kinds of orders!

And, as Cyclo says, if this model winds up being a go, then when we add the "level 2" layer of strats into the equation, we can do some pretty intricate stuff, I think!

Keep those comments cominging! I'm lovin' 'em so far!

-=Vel=-

	11-12-2002 22:03									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That system sounds really cool. I really like it. What really makes the system is that in addition to the rock/scissor/paper aspect of it, armies of certain configurations will be able to use certain maneuvers better than others.

I do have one minor concern. It is vital to make sure that the system remains mostly balanced. That is not to say that some maneuvers won't be stronger than others. I just want to be sure that there isn't some attack + army combo or something that is clearly more powerful than the rest. An analogy for this would be the difference between needlejets and choppers in SMAC. After choppers there are no good reasons to use needlejets.

At first glance everything seems to be well balanced. I'm confident that it can be kept that way with a little playtesting. I am looking forward to seeing the level 2 strategies. Maybe some of them will involve using magic? Just an idea.

	11-12-2002 22:27									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Indeed! It is my hope that, although our early CB versions will not have a tactical combat model in it, we can make the strategic model we wind up with intricate enough to really give some depth to combat, and to the decisions you make, both in battle, and in putting an army together (as I see it now, a good deal of time and thought can be given to designing a variety of strike forces, each optomized toward 1-2 key strats....this makes things really interesting when you add leaders and leader specials to the mix....one can only imagine such things as a "Barbarian" Leader heading up the charge of his overruning army, or a "Stoic Defender" holding the line against the enemy....such things will really add something to the game, I think!

But....this is an area that we'll *really* need lots of pairs of eyeballs on....I suspect our two biggest areas of potential game-imbalance will be here (if we go with this model....inadventently creating "killer combos" of army types, strats, leaders, and/or spells), and with the magic system itself.

I've tried to do the initial balancing in my head, but there are so many possible combinations that I surely have overlooked some, and probably several....that'll be when the REAL fun begins....

-=Vel=-

	12-12-2002 06:09									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think that Flank should beat Hold (the enemy is sitting still, so you have plenty of room to maneuver) and Overrun (a headlong charge can't change direction easily to meet your flanking attack), but NOT advance. Advance should beat Flank (controlled formation CAN turn to meet a flanking attack with ease). Advance should be equal vs. Overrun and DIE against Hold (your slow movement means entrenched archers and seige weapons can hit you easily). Overrun should either KILL Hold (if forces are a certain amount larger than the ones on Hold, then the enemy breaks ranks and is cut to pieces, but if the Overrunning troops are smaller, their momentum is destroyed by the entrenched army). Flank should be strong with Cavalry, not Archers. Also, Flank needs to have probability of failure, depending on the enemy strategy (vs Hold low, vs Overrun low-medium, vs Advance high-medium, vs Flank high), and if it fails there are significant penalties.

	12-12-2002 07:11									#11
	Tired of ads?

Skywalker has just demonstrated that there is indeed more than one way to skin the proverbial cat! And a good analysis indeed!

One thing this clearly points out to me is the fact that no matter how we define the "canned" strategies, they are very definitely open to interpretation.

Rest assured that what you see written here is not the final product....this idea is, quite literally being born here on the forums....perfected and tweaked by the comments recieved.

Keep 'em coming guys....I'm working on the next iteration of the idea already, and should have it finished sometime Friday!

-=Vel=-

	12-12-2002 08:04									#12
	Put an end to popups!

ahhhh....on my way to bed, but I knew there was something I was forgetting....

A note re: the "flank" canned strat: While I agree in principle that flank should, by its design, be quite favorable to cavalry, I went with an "archer-centric" design because of the way we have cavs expressed in the current game....Cavs come with the built in ability to flank/charge, and I couldn't think of a good, balanced way to enhance that in terms of the canned strategy. (as it is, they actually *do* get quite a kick, but only if the flank is executed by an army containing a leader....all non-archer units gain +2 to their A/D values, which is kicked up to +4 when the cavs charge....brutal....

-=Vel=-

	24-12-2004 01:20									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

^ so I can find it again, rules revision work

-=Vel=-