11-12-2002 13:01									#1
	Cheating in PBEMs; A scenario designer's response. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

For what it's worth;

A quick glance at the PBEM forum will reveal that there are a good number of them designed by yours truly. It was formerly the case that, when one of my scenarios was complete, I would happily advertise it in a thread and request a PBEM test run. Hopefully, I don't have to go into WHY a test run is advisable.

However . . .

When a player cheats in one of the test runs (and, IIRC, that did indeed occur), it tends to spoil, at least partially, my intent in conducting the test run in the first place. Not to mention how frustrating it is. Sadly, I watched these test runs and other PBEMs using my scenarios and, to be absolutely honest, I picked out the cheaters before anyone else did. I KNOW certain things about my own scenarios and could tell very quickly that some events taking place were not right.

I kept quiet about it, however.

I just read the hot debates about cheaters and listing them and felt that I should express my own opinion.

For the record;

I support the list.

WHY?

It will tell me immediately who NOT to allow into a test run. I have my own agenda here--to produce a quality scenario. That agenda is compromised by cheaters. I don't like that. I want to know.

Some info on moi;

I am; 44 years old, have been on ACS longer than most everyone else commenting on this issue so far (with the exceptions of Techumseh and St. Leo), overeducated, professional historian.

This is MY OPINION and NOT debatable. The responses I would like to see in this thread will, hopefully, come from other scenario designers. Please NOTE THIS!

	11-12-2002 23:16									#2
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That's an interesting attitude and possibly acceptable in your situation, but I am getting rid of the list if it becomes adopted by the general public.

The idea is to maintain a criminal record as a tie-breaker in cases of suspected cheating and not to assume that everyone on the list is a cheater by default.

	12-12-2002 03:33									#3
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Leo, can you please explain? I thought that 'the list' was solely for listing proven cheaters, and not keeping track of "criminal records" (whatever that means!)

	12-12-2002 06:21									#4
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I don't want people kept from joining games because they are on the list. If you can't think of other uses for the list, please abstain from looking at it.

	12-12-2002 12:33									#5
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You're getting rid of the list "if it becomes adopted by the general public"? What does that mean? Either you support the list as a means to EXCLUDE cheaters from PBEM games or you don't.

But even if you don't support it, that doesn't mean that you should use (or mis-use) your mod powers to close the thread, any more than you should have used those powers to top the thread.

	12-12-2002 16:46									#6
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Lets be nice here guys and respectful, I support the list and I want to use the list. Please dont lose that privledge! And hats off to Exile! I agree 100% even though I am not a scenario designer.

	12-12-2002 19:07									#7
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I also think the list is a good idea - for designers like myself in playtests - but also for individuals who also want to know who NOT to trust in a PBEM, and therefore hopefully avoid many wasted hours invested in a cheat-ruined game.

If someone gets on the list for an infringement, they can always re-register and build up a new rep. The inconvenience of having to do so should be a strong deterrent to cheating in the first place....

If they get on the list in error, there should be an appeals process. But the mod's decision is final, and I would rather see the odd innocent punished here, than uncontrolled cheating ruin everyone's fun. A truly wronged individual can always re-register - it's a pain, but it's not like they have been executed!

	12-12-2002 20:04									#8
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If someone gets on the list for an infringement, they can always re-register and build up a new rep.

Actually, we at Apolyton frown on Double Logins.

Could this discussion please wait until we actually get to utilise the list? There is no reason to create controversy.

	12-12-2002 20:07									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Patient English I would rather see the odd innocent punished here, than uncontrolled cheating ruin everyone's fun. A truly wronged individual can always re-register - it's a pain, but it's not like they have been executed!

Hell, NO !

I don't mind the list, but I won't accept that it's ok to sometimes put an innocent in the list rather than let a guilty one escape!

People should only be put in the list once they are PROVEN cheaters! Strong suspicions aren't enough, IMO...

	12-12-2002 20:31									#10
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"There is no reason to create controversy." Heavens no, we wouldn't want that. Actually, we've already HAD this discussion (several times), it's been divisive, and I don't want to repeat it just 'cause Exile missed out on it the first few times.

	13-12-2002 00:31									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Cyrion Hell, NO ! I don't mind the list, but I won't accept that it's ok to sometimes put an innocent in the list rather than let a guilty one escape! People should only be put in the list once they are PROVEN cheaters! Strong suspicions aren't enough, IMO...

I agree with Cyrion and I believe that is Darius's original intent. Proven cheaters only. And Ming and St Leo have already said if any "suspected" as opposed to "proven" cheaters are posted then the poster will get a vacation to mingopolis!

And dont forget to keep this discussion professional please! Thanks!

	13-12-2002 03:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And dont forget to keep this discussion professional please! Thanks!

Was that for me ??

	13-12-2002 03:32									#13
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Thanks for the contributions to this thread from St. Leo, Techumseh, Case, and John. The fraternity of Civ2 scenario designers is a small one and I didn't know what kind of response I'd get. I'd still like to hear from Paul, Stephan, Bernd, Carl, and the Magyar crusader on this.

Thanks also to the non-designers.

Tech is correct and I agree with him; I don't want to see the same tired issues brought up. The whole business seems painfully clear to me;

Verified cheater = ON THE LIST

I don't see any controversy here. If someone does, then I'd suggest they drop the dramatics and get real.

(Probably an unrealistic request )

What I'm after are the opinions and comments of my fellow designers. PBEM is a relatively new phenomenon in the Civ2 world, one that, modesty aside, I feel that I had a strong hand in initiating (though not the only hand, by any means). The fact that anyone DID cheat in these games frankly surprised me. I suppose that it shouldn't have, but it did. I'm curious to see the reactions of the rest of the "fraternity" and see how they feel. I can imagine that I don't feel quite as betrayed as the actual players in the PBEMs, however. For me, it was simply frustrating.

BUT . . .

There is also this; If someone either inside or outside of a given PBEM is watching the game, trying to determine for themselves whether or not one of mine is a quality scenario or not, the antics of a cheater can give a skewed impression of what the scenario is and how it works, thus undermining the work I've put into it to make it a quality scenario.

Further commentary?

	13-12-2002 03:52									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Cyrion Was that for me ??

No just a reminder for everyone, the last time we tried this the thread got way out of hand and it got closed. I think we owe Exile the chance to hear opinions of his fellow scenario designers thats all. I just want us all to be carefull and respectfull of one another, OK?

	13-12-2002 04:00									#15
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So (pardon my ignorance) how do you VERIFY a cheater, unless they confess, or are very stupid?

	13-12-2002 04:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Patient English So (pardon my ignorance) how do you VERIFY a cheater, unless they confess, or are very stupid?

People like Darius, Case, Duke of Marlborough actually download past files and check for things like combat results that could not have happened, units that move to far from turn to turn, and production in cities that have civil disorder or should have civil disorder. It is a tedious process and my hat is off to those three guys and others who have taken the time to prove that cheating existed. Im sure there are other ways to check those are a few and the experts would now better than I would.

	13-12-2002 05:39									#17
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John, I'll give you an example of how I was able to determine cheating was going on in Imp1870 in one PBEM game.

I made the city of Fez a very tough nut to crack. It's virtually impossible to take without the use of rifled artillery or very, very many cannon units. In the dozens of games I've played myself, it usually takes no less than 8-10 rifled artillery units, most of which perish in the process. With cannons only, it would be FAR more difficult. In the game I saw, a player was able to take Fez on either turn 2 or 3. No rifled artillery was available. This shouldn't have been possible. Why? Because the scenario's extra-high production costs for units would prevent ANY player from constructing enough cannons, and then get them to the location, to successfully assault and seize the city. When I saw this happen, I knew what was going on, but couldn't determine myself exactly what to do about it. It wasn't a test run set up by myself, so I felt compelled to keep quiet and allow the other players to eventually discover it themselves. Try to put yourself in my place here. What would you do?

There are other signs to watch, however. Units moving between turns when they're not supposed to is a strong indicator that someone inside the game is cheating.

The other guys have more technical methods of detecting cheating.

The cheaters either DO confess (usually after being caught ), or they disappear--a tacit confession, AFAIAC.

Verification, as it has been conducted, is OBJECTIVE and can easily be proven.

	13-12-2002 07:01									#18
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quote: I would rather see the odd innocent punished here

This shouldn't even be discussed because it can't happen. As Exile and conmcb25 made clear, cheating is objective and can be confirmed beyond a doubt. If any idiot posts an unsubstantiated accusation on the list, the accusation will (hopefully) be deleted and the poster's reputation will be ruined. This is why everybody's worries about 'witch hunts' are completely unfounded.

quote: Actually, we've already HAD this discussion (several times), it's been divisive, and I don't want to repeat it just 'cause Exile missed out on it the first few times.

Agreed. I value his input on this, but the thread should not turn into another debates. Let creators voice their concerns and that's it, instead of us being redundant.

quote: When I saw this happen, I knew what was going on, but couldn't determine myself exactly what to do about it. It wasn't a test run set up by myself, so I felt compelled to keep quiet and allow the other players to eventually discover it themselves. Try to put yourself in my place here. What would you do?

Sorry, but frankly I don't agree with your decision. The turns in Imperialism 1870 and the diplomacy on the thread are very time consuming, and I wouldn't have let people play through a half dozen rounds until they eventually figure it out themselves. I wouldn't have posted 'OMFG Eivind's an f'ing cheater', but I would have just privately contacted one of the players or Duke of Marlbrough and let them handle it, perhaps under the guise of a random check. Eivind's cheating was flagrant and could have been proven and announced in a matter of hours.

	13-12-2002 07:08									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Exile I'd still like to hear from Paul, Stephan, Bernd, Carl, and the Magyar crusader on this.

That reminds me, why isn't this thread at SL?

	13-12-2002 08:18									#20
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Cheating is always unacceptable, but I completely concur with those who say it must be proven & documented before any public accusations are bruited about. On that basis, I don't have a problem with the list.

	13-12-2002 16:31									#21
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Now I don't want anyone to feel left out , so perhaps I should also mention that I'd like to hear from Henrik, JayBee, Kindal, FMK, DarthVeda, John Petroski, Markus Eklund, Michael Daumen, William Keenen, Harlan Thompson, Mr. Temba, Mattias Koster, Hendrik the Great, and yes, even Kobayashi.

If I've forgotten anyone else, the omission was entirely inadvertent.

(I don't think we'll hear from some of these folks, though, which is too bad)

	13-12-2002 16:38									#22
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Why don't you PM them? I don't think it'll be too much of a nuisance to voice their opinions on this.

	14-12-2002 00:18									#23
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quote: John, I'll give you an example of how I was able to determine cheating was going on in Imp1870 in one PBEM game.

Exile, OK, I bow to your cheater-hunting expertise on this. I'm glad there are guys like you out there who will spend the time and effort to find the rotten apples.

My hang-the-(possibly)-innocent statement that has attracted so much distain was only because I didn't understand how marginal cheaters (those who slightly edit the rules.txt or replay turns indefinitely until they get the "right" result) can be caught unless they are careless or greedy. The sort of analysis you hint at could very well prove wrongdoing, I can see.

In that case, I agree wrongdoing should be conclusively proven first - because apparently it CAN be.

	14-12-2002 00:31									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Patient English In that case, I agree wrongdoing should be conclusively proven first - because apparently it CAN be.

Yep if someone has the patients (no pun intended) for it is possible. Im checking into one right now and quickly discovering that I dont. And my skill aren't good enough to really tell. But Im glad guys like Darius, Case, Exile, DoM and others are out there!

	14-12-2002 02:07									#25
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quote: I didn't understand how marginal cheaters (those who slightly edit the rules.txt or replay turns indefinitely until they get the "right" result) can be caught unless they are careless or greedy.

[Fortunately] it turns out that almost all cheaters are very poor cheaters, and always make painfully obvious changes. For example, willemvanoranje set his spitfires' attack value from 10 to 50 and wiped out an entire army group with them.

There have been people out there who some of us believed were 'slightly' editing the rules file or reloading (although somehow it seems the community thinks the latter is acceptable anyway), but since it wasn't provable it was kept private as it should have been.

	14-12-2002 06:12									#26
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I think scenario designers ought to help find cheaters when and if they're called upon and the creator of a scenario should be the one to determine whether cheating has taken place as long as they're not in the game. While I haven't created any scenario for Civ2 that have been played by anyone but me I have made some for myself and have made scens in other games like Panzer General 2 so I have some understanding of how disapointing it would be to have the perception of your scenario scewed by a cheater.

[St Leo's Edit: Flowers are purty.]

Last edited by St Leo on 14-12-2002 at 09:48

	14-12-2002 07:18									#27
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quote: [SIZE=1] St. Leo's Edit II: Lollipops are Yummy.

Cant we just be professional about this discussion, please?

	14-12-2002 11:28									#28
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Why is the moderator editing other people's posts?

	14-12-2002 14:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Why is the moderator editing other people's posts?

Because the post was less than professional, and I for one am glad he edited both posts including mine.

And please read some of my previous posts. If we dont keep this thread professional it is going to get closed. Simple as that.

And just what the heck ever happened to common courtesy in this day and age?

Go ahead and agree or disagree with someones opinion but dont insult them personnaly. It is just plain out of line.
Thanks!