12-12-2002 00:07									#1
	Early Deity Support Apolyton

I generally play at Emperor. I find it a very sharp division in difficulty between Emperor and Deity. I can typically win most starts, excepting really bad ones where my initial starting city doesn't have a single tile in range that produces a shield, i.e. jungle starts with a few non-shielded grasslands thrown in. On the other hand, I lose pretty badly with anything but the most exceptional of starts on Deity.

Once upon a time, before 1.17f, I could win at Deity, but it required brutal pop-rushing. Since pop-rushing has been massively toned down, that's not really an option anymore.

At Emperor, I typically run an early war, with Horsemen if I can get them, or Archers or Swordsmen if I can't. Typically I mount my first attack quite early, 1500-1200 BC, and the AI civs are still expanding and not all that hard to hurt. I take a couple of cities, extort a few techs, and then move on to the next victim.

I don't absolutely have to do this, but in my experience if I don't have enough room for a Palace core area and a Forbidden Palace core area, I'm going to be the backward civ at the bottom of the list. If I can expand to cover that much area peacefully, fine, but usually I have to fight for the territory.

I just can't do this on Deity. By the time I'm ready to attack, I'm surrounded by a civ three times my size that's finished expanding, and has a military that can mop the floor with me. Worse, they've usually reached Knights when all I've got are Horsemen or Swordsmen.

I don't see how it's done without the pop-rush. Even a really early archer rush is too late - they AI is already too strong. Being peaceful doesn't seem like an option unless I have an absolutely fantastic start where I'm allowed to grow to a competitive size.

- Gus

	12-12-2002 01:18									#2
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I don't think there is one good answer but I do think the same principles that work on Emperor work on Deity.

There was a good thread called Deity for Beginners just a few weeks ago you might want to read.

For sure, on Deity you don't have a feeling of control and you must be patient, learning to recognize opportunities and knowing in advance how to prepare to be ready to take advantage of opportunities. I am rambling here, but what I'm trying to say is that it gets easier as the game goes on, providing you survive.

	12-12-2002 02:03									#3
	Aye Full PM-box? Change here!

I just made a long passive deity post in the thread on Wang Kong, as I didn't see this one, but it probably belongs here...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...877#post1527877

(btw when I mentioned Txurce, that's his set of threads on deity games with peaceful openings)

jshelr hit the nail on the head, what you're seeing, having a tiny army very outgunned by the AI in the middle ages, is rather common, but is not an indicator that you're doomed!

quote: on Deity you don't have a feeling of control and you must be patient

That's an understatement when you see a stack of forty immortals romping through your territory defended by a total of about eight spearmen. I think the first three games I played at deity I just said "omg!" and quit in despair. Now it's easier to take it in stride, dial up Xerces and see if there's anything you can do to help your old friend, and bide your time. His day WILL come.
We have a saying for that kind of troop movement...
"Deity RoP(TM)"

Charis

	12-12-2002 15:04									#4
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How are you supposed to play Deity AND have fun?

	12-12-2002 17:54									#5
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Datajack

There is a certain type of fun in the heart-pounding anxiety created by the imminent prospect of your civ being pummeled at any moment which, if extended over a sufficiently long number of hours, can produce shaking hands and difficulty breathing. Sort of like watching the NY Giants play football if you are a native New Yorker.

	12-12-2002 19:11									#6
	Hehe Inflate your Upload Space

quote: How are you supposed to play Deity AND have fun?

Now where did you get the silly idea it's supposed to be fun?!??!?

j/k -- it's an underdog thing. When you come back from behind and start laying down the smack to the guys who bullied you for two to three eras, it's a very satisfying kind of fun.

On my current game I'm in early Middle Ages, and at least a full half-era behind in tech, and quite small in comparison to the other civs. There's one civ that I've given tribute to once, and who has come straight over to my territory and founded cities in my homeland. He's been a thorn in my side the whole game. Then I see him move up for what appears (very strongly) to be a sneak attack. Hmmm... I go into huge debt to by a tech from him for large gpt, only to have him declare war on me (essentially giving me the tech for free). In the one round I had, I upgraded from spear to pike, moved in an extra defender, and started moving over a counter attack force. On the first two turns of war by extremely meager army razed two of his cities, and over the next ten I razed three more (my army was so small I had NO extra defenders to hold the cities). His overstretching and loss of a few cities and units was like the smell of blood to the other AI, and without me even having to buy alliances (which I would do at end of Middle Ages when I had money, not now), THREE went to war with him. He then begged me for peace, and threw in Gunpowder! That's the fun of it - being the last, most backward civ on the planet, winning a war started by a bully and gaining two techs for free. I will still have to kiss up to the game's superpower for another era and a half, but his day too will come.

(There is the danger that if one doesn't beat down Emperor routinely, however, that one won't win these wars, will get wiped out at the end of the Ancient Era, where the superpower's day of judgement never does come, and where it's really no fun at all -- unless you're a Giants fan! :P )

Charis

	12-12-2002 19:42									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit How are you supposed to play Deity AND have fun?

It is fun, I tend to lose interest when it turns into a mop up operation.

	12-12-2002 23:07									#8
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I like underdog games. I enjoy games where the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat is always just out of reach, and which of them will make an appearence is unknown until it actually arrives.

However, I don't enjoy Deity-level games. True, it is almost always an underdog game. But I've found that Deity restricts my play-style choices. I must either: (1) engage in ultra-early war, nearly constantly from the get-go through the early Middle Ages; (2) hunker down and bide my time, then engage in ultra-late war; or (3) play for a diplo victory. And my start position (map features, terrain, proximity of neighbors, etc.) too often makes the choice for me. Conversely, on Emperor, I often have mych greater freedom to choose to play in a particulkar manner. The threat of defeat remains, but my energies are not channeled into one path to hoped-for victory.

Others clearly enjoy Deity. For me, it restircts my gameplay too much and makes my games feel like an exercise rather than a diversion.

Catt

	13-12-2002 00:09									#9
	Remove this text

Well I also want to give Deity a try soon.
The 'problem' I have with emperor is that the late game is not very challenging anymore.
I also have a question to Deity players; is it really a necessity to use ICS? because I really hate that borg-like playing style.

	13-12-2002 00:22									#10
	Re: Early Deity Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by GusSmed At Emperor, I typically run an early war, with Horsemen if I can get them, or Archers or Swordsmen if I can't. Typically I mount my first attack quite early, 1500-1200 BC, and the AI civs are still expanding and not all that hard to hurt... I just can't do this on Deity. By the time I'm ready to attack, I'm surrounded by a civ three times my size that's finished expanding, and has a military that can mop the floor with me. Worse, they've usually reached Knights when all I've got are Horsemen or Swordsmen.

I usually do a swordman rush around 1000 BC, all warriors upgraded from the cash I got while researching iron working at 10% science. With 15-20 swordmen you should be able to control the war until the AI talks for peace.

Diety is all about getting an FP. Once your second core is built up the AI loses its production advantage and it's only a matter of time before you catch up and get ahead.

	13-12-2002 02:24									#11
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I feel like the Phil Mickelson of Civ3.

[que commentators]

C1 - Yeah, he is pretty good at Emperor but he has never won on Deity

C2 - You're just not a real man until you've won on Deity

C1 - He might has well just give up:

C2 - Or go back to Cheiftan

C1 -

	13-12-2002 03:32									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

I find the best way to win on Deity is to set the land mass option to islands. Go for money over tech so that you can build up a bank account to deal with the other civs. Never waste time building Wonders. Spend the resources on military units and take the Wonders that teh other guys build.

If you can get six or seven cities on an island to yourself, with either iron or horses included, you can build up enough of a force to take on your nearest neighbour by the time you get boats without being trampled on by their increased production. Take a few cities to gain a foothold on their empire and then make peace, since you'll lose out in a protracted war.

Throw some more units into those cities and then declare war again. Don't do it alone, though, use your big back account to have an AI civ on the other side of him declare war as well and have the guy divert units onto the other side of his empire. Go buck wild and trash the guy as much as you can.

Repeat until the game gives you a domination victory.

	13-12-2002 19:47									#13
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...y+for+beginners