12-12-2002 05:50									#1
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3550 is here.

All scores 30. Lux and us 26.

	12-12-2002 05:55									#2
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Warrior complete next turn.

Chop started.

Gronk moves 2. More grass (3) 2 of them have shields, 1 has wheat.

Grog moves 8. Plains, Hills (3 of them, 2 with incense) Grass with forest (8-9) and another mountain (9-6).

	12-12-2002 06:01									#3
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Nice to get some really good news about terrain, for a change.

	12-12-2002 06:02									#4
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Nothing new in F11. No one else has hit size 2 yet.

	12-12-2002 06:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Nice to get some really good news about terrain, for a change.

Yes, it looks promising to the North. Wait till you get the shots.

Turn done. Being sent. Shots on the way after that.

	12-12-2002 07:09									#6
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The terrain situation is developing nicely. With Flood Plains and a Wheat Grassland tile, we should be able to expand quite quickly. Plus, those Hills allows for some nice production once we hit Monarchy. Finally, a big concentration of two Luxuries means we've got something to offer other teams. Excellent.


Dominae

	12-12-2002 07:16									#7
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But I didn't expect to see ocean NE
The peninsula is bigger then I thought (S)
Am I right in thingking, our borders will expand on the next turn?

quote: Finally, a big concentration of two Luxuries means we've got something to offer other teams. Excellent.

I sure hope the level didn't get reset to chieftain

edit:added ocean

	12-12-2002 14:35									#8
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 I sure hope the level didn't get reset to chieftain

That would be quite disappointing. Who fricking needs 2 lux's then. And we have a near monopoly on two/

How do we know if the level has been reset? Is that a bug or is it someone pressing the wrong button, ala the accel. prod. mess?

edit: I guess we can tell due to the happiness level, I was just wondering if it said chieftain someplace.

	12-12-2002 14:52									#9
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just noticed your avatar AsleepAtTheWheel. good stuff.

	12-12-2002 17:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel How do we know if the level has been reset? Is that a bug or is it someone pressing the wrong button, ala the accel. prod. mess? edit: I guess we can tell due to the happiness level, I was just wondering if it said chieftain someplace.

It usually says "custom" in the left panel when you load the PBEM, if someone has altered the normal regent setting.

Altough it usually does not work, when you try setting the level to something other than Regent.

For example : me & my brother had to restart our PBEM 3 times, because the level was still regent in 2 first, however, for some unknown reason, in the third time the level was actually Emperor.
This was not nice, because we had to play for many turns before actually noticing that the level was not right in 2 first games.

Wasnt the "always Chieftain" bug only present in HotSeat games ? And the "always Regent" bug in PBEM. If so, we could assume that we are on Regent level.

	12-12-2002 17:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Conqueror Wasnt the "always Chieftain" bug only present in HotSeat games ? And the "always Regent" bug in PBEM. If so, we could assume that we are on Regent level.

In the Euro-PBEM game, it looks as if the system somehow kicked us into either Chieftain or Warlord. I won't have confirmation of which until I grow to size 4.

Nathan

	13-12-2002 00:28									#12
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I have confirmed myself that the difficulty gets kicked no matter how you load the game. I have reported it.

	13-12-2002 00:30									#13
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I have confirmed myself that the difficulty gets kicked no matter how you load the game. I have reported it.

So what level are we on now? Does it always drop down to Chieftain?

	13-12-2002 00:35									#14
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Regent, as far as I can tell.

	13-12-2002 00:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Regent, as far as I can tell.

well, that's not so bad, aren't happiness levels the same in monarch and regent? or just slightly different.

If it dropped to chieftain, then that would suck.



On an aside:

Is anyone else suprised that we haven't seen a single goody hut yet? it seems to me that I would usually see one by now.
I hope that it didn't randomly draw no barbs. though if it did, then I'm glad we went egyptian.

	13-12-2002 04:53									#16
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By the way, the tile Gronk is currently standing on seems to be a pretty good city site. It would have 3 bonus grass and a wheat.

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 06:13									#17
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One tile to the north of him seems ok as well (3 from capital), even if we need either a temple, or an neighbouring city to get to the wheat. Gronk's tile is probably best, though.

DeepO

	13-12-2002 06:19									#18
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The next city down should get the Wheat if the city in question is placed on the Forest instead of the Grassland. Founding on the Forest means a loss of 10 Shields and the possibility of gettting a bonus Grassland, but it means sticking to the 3-spacing plan. As a non-Economist, I reserve my opinion on this one. Just stating the facts...




Dominae

	13-12-2002 07:01									#19
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I really don't like the idea of founding a city that has to wait until it builds a temple to use the wheat, especially when it will probably have to build a worker before it can build the temple. That's a lot of time to do without the benefit of the wheat this early in the game. Further, I seriously doubt that precise city spacing for military reasons will be an issue that far south.

Nathan

	13-12-2002 07:16									#20
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Yeah, military spacing wouldn't be that much a problem there... but if we are going south with the second settler, we could use it anyway. North seems to make the best 3rd city region, but we still need to find a juicy spot there, whereas to the south we seem to have the space for a few good cities early on. If both our settlers were to go south, I'd vote for the forest tile. Otherwise Gronk's tile seems best.

DeepO

	13-12-2002 07:48									#21
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I like that gold hill to the north. With the floodplains up there, we will have food, and we can pretty quickly use that tile and get the boost to our already solid commerce.

I'm not entirely sure the wheat city should be #2... maybe, maybe not. More exploring still necessary. But my concern is that we will (most likely) have competition to the north, and not to the south.

-Arrian

	13-12-2002 08:00									#22
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Revealing more of the map will be a good help.

Remember, the 2 spacing was partly for military, but largely for total production power at size 12. A large part of the assumption was that the game would most likely be decided long before Sanitation.

	13-12-2002 08:13									#23
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nye is right. Depending on how much space is available down South, a tight city spacing may be efficient in the long run, regardless of the benefit of an extra couple turns of Wheat. Plus, spacing the cities out now will only result in lower productive power later on.

I know I'm pushing this idea, but a Worker farm on or around the Flood Plains may be quite useful. A Worker farm is much like a Granary in that it stunts early growth, but speeds it up immensely a few dozen turns down the road. The farm would be in between our normal spacing, and would be disbanded once it's no longer needed. Since Worker farms need production in addition to food, maybe leaving the Northwest forest uncut is a wise choice for now.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 13-12-2002 at 08:51

	13-12-2002 08:24									#24
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Revealing more of the map will be a good help. Remember, the 2 spacing was partly for military, but largely for total production power at size 12. A large part of the assumption was that the game would most likely be decided long before Sanitation.

It doesn't take precise spacing to have the ability to juggle tiles so size 12 corresponds closely with the use of all available tiles. Actually, with how narrow our land mass is, we'll probably need a little bit tighter spacing on average to take advantage of all available tiles including coast and sea at size 12. Our planned pattern assumes cities competing for tiles in all directions, but there are no cities out in the ocean.

By the way, a few cities from now, building a city on the gold hill could be interesting. Such a city could use flood plains for growth and mines in the surrounding hills for production. The nice thing about building cities on gold hills is that the gold is available immediately without sacrificing growth.

Nathan

	13-12-2002 16:37									#25
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nathan, that goldhill seems not easy to combine in a tight spacing, I was checking if it would be possible to have an incense-city. Maybe both are possible

As to the tighter spacing on a small landmass: I don't completely agree. Sure, we could build closer to have all tiles worked, but I don't mind if some of the ocean tiles aren't used. They are only good for commerce, and not for growth nor production. If we want to use all of them, it means a lot of our cities won't have much production.

I agree on expansion to the North, but not for our first cities if it would mean that they can only produce a settler each 30 turns. OTOH, it would be foolish to squander shields just to keep to our spacing too. Could Gronk move 4 to see if the tile to the West of the weath is a plain grass tile? If so, that one, the forest tile, and the tile South of Gronk seem 3 good city sites, with 2 spacing and good production and growth.

DeepO

	13-12-2002 17:06									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO As to the tighter spacing on a small landmass: I don't completely agree. Sure, we could build closer to have all tiles worked, but I don't mind if some of the ocean tiles aren't used. They are only good for commerce, and not for growth nor production. If we want to use all of them, it means a lot of our cities won't have much production.

Keep in mind that most cities can't grow past size six until Construction. So what tight spacing provides is nearly full utilization of land tiles near the capital early and then nearly full utilization of both land and coast tiles as cities grow to size 12. And remember, while coast tiles produce no shields, they're some of the best wealth generators in existence. Such tactics are my standard operating procedure when I start in an area like this with a huge amount of coast in SP, and they work well for me. (In SP, I normally want to use most of the coast tiles at size 12 but am content to leave sea and some coast unused until I start growing past size 12.)

Nathan

	13-12-2002 17:21									#27
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Oh, I agree... I think I didn't make myself clear. I too like the 2-spacing algorithm best, but I wouldn't go closer (to 1 spacing) just so we can use all sea tiles. If all our cities are at size 12, I don't mind missing a few (not too many, of course) sea tiles.

And water is good for commerce, I said that before, but without decent production it will take us 40 or 80 turns to build a library. We should try to have at least the possibility of production in most of our cities.

DeepO

	13-12-2002 17:32									#28
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By "all available tiles including coast and sea," I was referring to all tiles within the radii of cities that can reasonably be built with a target eventual city size of 12. Get into too tight a spacing and cities won't be able to reach that size.

In regard to production problems, if cities can get a temple, a marketplace, an aqueduct, and a library in place by the time they shift their work force from land to water, they aren't in too terrible a shape even with very little production from then on. Still, I like the idea of coastal cities' having at least two or three land tiles to work if practical.

Nathan

	13-12-2002 17:36									#29
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So... we're trying to sell each other his own idea I agree, Nathan, on all counts. Sorry to have misunderstood you.

DeepO

	13-12-2002 17:53									#30
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If spacing refers to the number of tiles in between cities, it probably will take a bit of "1 spacing" to take full advantage of the coast and some of the sea, since coastal cities don't have as much competition for tiles. But the deviations in spacing need to be selective and planned out (and probably won't fit our original "ideal" pattern especially well since coastal cities by definition have to follow where the coast goes).
What we may want to do is draw up maps and play with different city positionings once we get the area to the south fully mapped or are about ready to send a settler down (whichever comes first).