05-08-2000 23:24									#1
	Anyone use Submarines successfully? Suffering from ads?

Is there anyway to use Submarines successfully against the computer? I believe the AI much cheat because they always, always
know where my subs are located. I've given up on using them. I think subs are way too weak in all Civs and SMAC games. They wreaked horror in WWI and almost singlehandedly won the war. Did the same throughout most of WWII
and now they are the greated nuclear deterrent.

I just wondered if anyone has had any luck
using them against the AI.

	05-08-2000 23:48									#2
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I use them in CIV2, because you can put missles on them and they have good attack power. I've never used them in SMAC. There isn't a real need for them I think, and you are right about the AI knowing where everyone of your units are. They might work against a human player.

	06-08-2000 04:09									#3
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I too used them extensively in CivII, creating wolfpacks. And as A_S says, with their missiles they are a formidable opponent in civII.

Never built one in smac or smacx. (Altho Argonaut, with his posts in the Spartan Chronicles, has deployed them with carrier decks - with the aircraft on alert, wouldn't they scramble against the AI (yes, who does know where you are, even when you're in fungus, I understand)

Googlie

Googlie

	06-08-2000 04:39									#4
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I like to put the sub ability on transports, but I agree w/everyone about the AI knowing where units are. I guess it just makes me feel better and gives me a reason to jump up and down and scream "Cheater!!!!" at my computer when a needlejet shows up and heads directly for my units. Anyway, I have always found that the benefits of putting AAA on a combat ship greater than those of sub. Most AI factions (minus pirates) don't pay attention to the sea and come after my sea units with air units, hence, the survivability of my sea units is improved greatly.

	06-08-2000 17:06									#5
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I think the best protection for your ships against the AI is Air Cover. The AI never uses Air Superiority on ships or land units like a human does. I've even used Carriers. If you have the production to do this it's devistating to the AI.

I think a sub could be usefull against a human player, but I haven't done it yet. It seems that multiplayer games rarely last that long.

	07-08-2000 09:03									#6
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i built one when my victory was assured, didnt do much other then conquer the remaining 3 spartan bases

	07-08-2000 05:28									#7
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Submarines ???
What submarines ???
Are there submarines in SMAC ???
C'mon, I'm playing SMAC since the first day it hit the market here and I DON'T KNOW how to build submarines !!!
Please help !!!
(What a shame for my nickname )

	07-08-2000 06:29									#8
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neptunus:

assuming your plea is from the heart - after you discover nanometallurgy, you can equip your ships with deep pressure hulls, which submerges them

Question for the purists:

If you equip a ship with the dissociative wave ability, does it nullify the submarine capability of the other ship?

(and does it nullify the marine detachment capability of other ships?)

Googlie

(I guess I could set up a scenario to see, but I'm too lazy - if anyone else has tried .....)

	07-08-2000 06:29									#9
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Yes, there are subs, but it isn't a chasis type, so it isn't that obvious. It comes with one of the mid-late game technologies, usually by the time you already are in the clean-up process and already either have all your unit designs or have planned out exactly what you want, so with so many options I at least don't usually do much brousing. I am going by memory talking of an ability I never actually used, but I believe it is called deep pressure hull, and to my knowledge can be equiped on any ocean going unit. This effectively gives the unit the detection ability of a sub. I believe the tech comes with an E8 technology, I want to say nanomachinery, or something like that, if I am thinking of the right one it is the same one that allows carriers.
At some point I seem to remember a years old debate on this forum about the legitability/fairness of submarine carrier decks, since this was obviously unrealistic and easily disbalancing, or much more powerful than normal carriers at least. The debate has been silent forever though, I can't even remember how it ended, but I imagine a patch made the two mutually exclusive. Either that or it was ruled forever a cheat in MP and an utter failure anyways in SP, thank you, oh omniscient but stupid AI.

	07-08-2000 08:11									#10
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Why should submarine aircraft carriers be considered impossible? They are already possible with current technology.

	07-08-2000 18:17									#12
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Subs rule the MP sea world! Anyone ever try this to an opponent who thinks they are plenty far enough away from your missile range?
Get a fleet of AAA carriers, with hidden AAA subs. Put a PB on each carrier, and maybe a couple fighters to scramble. Then, park about 6 tiles offshore of someone's empire that you want something from, and fly one planet buster close enough for them to see. They now have the following options-

Give in to your demands ($, tech, pact)
OR
declare war, not knowing your true strength out there. In which case you can nuke him and be off, or simply scatter to make it harder for him to find you. Anyone who does find you will not know about your subs until it is too late, unlike the AI. This strategy will not work in SP. The AI will head right toward you.

------------------
I got my troubles
An' my troubles they got me
Ain't easy bein' an object
In a game called ZZT
-The Jazz Man

	09-08-2000 10:26									#13
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Um. Question for Tau Ceti. Does dissociative wave actually have an effect when used by an attacking unit? I didn't think it was supposed to give any benefit to attackers (non-portable or somesuch).

	09-08-2000 16:33									#14
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Oh yes. In fact, it is much more useful for the attacker than for the defender. An attacking air unit with D-Wave ignores defending AAA (which is a HUGE advantage), attacking Speeders ignore defending ECM and attacking Psi units ignore defending Trance. For the defender, it is only useful against Soporific Gas or if you have units with Psi defence so you can cancel the Empath ability of the attacker.

	10-08-2000 19:31									#15
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death_head,

Have you actually done that? That is a great plan, but I doubt if I will ever get the chance to do that, unless I totally backstabbed a pactmate, and even then they should see it coming unless they REALLY trust me. When I'm playing multiplayer it's always all out war and I would never be able to build that many sneak units, because I would start loosing bases probably while I was building them.

	10-08-2000 22:44									#16
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Adam,
Technically no, at least on a large scale. I'm just guessing that an operation like that would be effective. However, I frequently use a carrier sub with a PB on it, as well as an interceptor and/or bomber to terrorize my enemies. I do have faith in that strategy, however, the more I think about it the more I think you would need your own peaceful continent and a huge edge on the others to do it.

------------------
I got my troubles
An' my troubles they got me
Ain't easy bein' an object
In a game called ZZT
-The Jazz Man

	11-08-2000 08:59									#17
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I get really nervious if my opponent has a PB and I don't know where it is. If it's PBEM I'm going to study on it for awhile. I'm going to check the datalinks to see what units he has. When I see that he has a submarine I'm going to see where that sub is supported at. Then I will send out some units to check it out. Now I admit that you can get tricky, but I'm going to be looking high and low for it for sure.

	13-08-2000 03:49									#18
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In response to Sub-carriers being unrealistic:

Actually (not that it really matters) sub-carriers were built by the Japanese in WWII, with the purpose of launching a surprise attack/invasion on the U.S., however, they ran short on time, and the planes were used in Kamikaze attacks. My point: They've been used before in a real war, why not a SMAC war? It obviously isn't unrealistic. And wouldn't loading a sub-carrier in SMAC with PB's be todays missile sub equivalent.

Also: You mentioned that sub-carriers create an imbalance in the game. In real life, destroyers carry sonar for sub detection. Would it not be realistic (and appropriate, IMHO) to offer that as a special ability in SMAC?

Just some thoughts.

	14-08-2000 02:24									#19
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True, aircraft-carrying subs were built by the Japanese.. the unrealistic thing is the aircraft landing again! The carrier-subs were to be used in a Kamikaze attack on the Panama canal, and the planes were effectively missiles.

Still, by the 2300's who knows what we might achieve. Certainly a submarine helicopter-carrier could be built today, if someone would stump up the money.

	14-08-2000 18:23									#20
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I never even realized that a faction that has infiltrated me can look at the support map at the supporting base to see where the sub could possibly be (hint hint it's probably the dot near your stuff that you can't see a unit for). I'll have to keep that in mind. Which brings up a question. Is there any way to rid your faction of an infiltrator? In real life many infiltrators were caught, so why not in SMAC?

------------------
I got my troubles
An' my troubles they got me
Ain't easy bein' an object
In a game called ZZT
-The Jazz Man

	14-08-2000 19:01									#21
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Harriers.

I don't know of anyway to rid yourself of an infiltrator. There probably should be, but it would have to be at least as hard as infiltrating.

	16-08-2000 11:33									#22
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Anyone us Submarines successfully?

Weeell, not the russians!


(Sorry, I just couldn't resist. I really feel sorry for those poor bastards trapped beneath the Arctic Sea)

With respect, and may they be saved swiftly

Beör

	16-08-2000 13:00									#23
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I don't think it is humanly possible to use submarines sucessfully. I used to use them for novelty value. Perhaps makes the crews of my ships feel invincible... only to be cut down by an AI needlejet. Oh well.

I gave up on using them long ago. Now I build custom ships (SAM+AAA for air attack missions, deep+marine for enemy ship capturing/destroying missions, ect)

And, as far as I can remember, I tried to look on the support map of an enemy I infltrated, and it only showed the base location, not anything outside of it. And I'm SURE they had units out there.

	16-08-2000 19:38									#24
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The jokes are inevitable unfortunately.

I would like to think that most nations would put more value in the lives of their sailors, but I really don't think that's true.