13-12-2002 04:28									#1
	Our First Diplomatic Victory Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

War has been averted with Neu Demogyptica.

This is the deal, as agreed to by myself, the ambassador to NDE, and PJ, and Borc, the leader of the NDE team:

We give 10 gold and a Peace Treaty.
We recieve Warrior Code, and a border along the mountain chain which we can barely see (check out the territory screenshot at the website).

	13-12-2002 06:06									#2
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It was indeed a victory for the Lux. Here is some of the topics I want to cover on this recent event:

1. Starting off with pessimistic information here; Our starting location has been found out. It is uncertain whether ND even realizes that they have this information staring at them in the face, but with many members, someone is bound to mention this within ND. Without calculating any specific details, I (if I was a ND member) would see that likelihood of encountering a warrior would indicate that the city is not to far off at this point, since warrior had to be built using couple of turn and it only moves one square,

However, the situation differs with us. We have played around 9 turns all so. That gives a scout 18 movement. In an ideal situation if they travelled their scout soley East and they encountered no hurdles like hills and forest, then their cities will be 18 terrains away from us. If they moved their scout South or north in the other hand, they would be 18 squares north or south. This creates a bit of an uncertainty as to where ND actually is.

2. Depending on how far the ND actually is, the border treaty deal's value goes up and down. Even at 18 tiles away, the Treaty is an excellent deal. If they are closer, its a gem; We have sucessfully partially stopped ND from Rexing.

3. Settler Price: I didn't think of this. Settler's by AI definition costs 240 gold (2X worker price). Had we captured it, we'd be stealing such amount of assets from the NDs. However we'd be hurting our image as a warmonger. By making a peaceful resolution, we gained warrior code and the territory deal. I dunno if that actually is worth having two workers at this point, but the question of how much border territory weighs in balances the deal abit. In addition, we preserved our public image. We propagandized the deal as a first step to trust each other as much as we could.

4. We prevented giving away of our tech. This is invaluable. We are technologically ahead of an expansionistic civ. Right now we are considering a tech guide to the NDs so that we can mutually trade. If they accept such an idea, we have more to gain.

5. NDs are poor. This loosely ties in with number four. NDs have nothing to offer us and we have two delicious tech to offer them; both are extremly good. Techs are perishable goods so we have to trade them as fast as we can. Especially NDs being expansionistic makes our tech more perishable for them, since they have higher chance of getting a tech from hut then anyone else. If we can influence the tech researching of NDs and trade tech for tech ASAP, not only would we be getting rid of a meat that will rot at one point or another, we could profit from disposing it.

6. Bronze Working. If we are not planning to goto war with ND. We might consider selling Bronzeworking to them. Not only would it build trust by showing actions that we will provide our neighbors with military technology, we will be benefiting from it. Something like bronzewroking is going to be researched by ND anyway. So if we're not gonna fight them, theres no point in withholding the tech. Might as well as benefit in a peaceful way.

	13-12-2002 06:49									#3
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No bronzeworking for a while...let us get to 3 cities first maybe...

	13-12-2002 06:55									#4
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Okay, on further analysis, CONGRATZ on the huge victory!!! I could not foresee such a grand coupe. If they do indeed leave the area, then this will prove to be a huge victory for us.

	13-12-2002 13:13									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Calc II Our starting location has been found out.

Still, ND does not know in which direction to look for us, even though we are close. Do not underestimate this.

quote: Originally posted by Calc II Even at 18 tiles away, the Treaty is an excellent deal. If they are closer, its a gem; We have sucessfully partially stopped ND from Rexing.

We have stopped them REXing to our side, which might imply that they'll get in conflict with other civs :-)
That mountain range seems like a nice natural border.

quote: Originally posted by Calc II 3. Settler Price: I didn't think of this. Settler's by AI definition costs 240 gold (2X worker price). Had we captured it, we'd be stealing such amount of assets from the NDs.

We were still 2 tiles away from the settler, so we were not sure to capture it. This makes the outcome even better!

quote: Originally posted by Calc II We are technologically ahead of an expansionistic civ. Right now we are considering a tech guide to the NDs so that we can mutually trade.

Do you mean a proposal like: we research literature and you research mapmaking and then we trade? A very good and profitable idea. These kind of deals will be essential for victory.

quote: Originally posted by Calc II If we can influence the tech researching of NDs and trade tech for tech ASAP, not only would we be getting rid of a meat that will rot at one point or another, we could profit from disposing it.

Yes. Another good reason to keep diplomatic relations tight.

quote: Originally posted by Calc II If we are not planning to goto war with ND. We might consider selling Bronzeworking to them.

Don't do that for now. When they are behind in tech, it's even more reason for them to go for a tech deal with us.


I say we need one person who acts as an ambassador for ND and keeps an eye on their techs and such - Foreign Ministry, who will that be ?

	13-12-2002 19:13									#6
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I'm with BFM on this one, while the tech for tech idea is a great one, we shouldn't trade our strategic strength away.

	13-12-2002 22:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Still, ND does not know in which direction to look for us, even though we are close. Do not underestimate this.

As revealed by Borc, NDE knows the exact location of our first, and only city.

quote: We have stopped them REXing to our side, which might imply that they'll get in conflict with other civs :-) That mountain range seems like a nice natural border.

As I've said elsewhere, the border agreement is much more important than the tech agreement. We can always re-negotiate things concerning techs, but we can't undo a border once a city is built (giving up cities will not occur very much at all, if you ask me).

quote: We were still 2 tiles away from the settler, so we were not sure to capture it. This makes the outcome even better!

Chances are we're now 3 tiles away, and they're heading for the capital. The longer these negotiations drag the less advantage we will have regarding the settler.

quote: Do you mean a proposal like: we research literature and you research mapmaking and then we trade? A very good and profitable idea. These kind of deals will be essential for victory.

Yes, getting a good tech trading partner early will strengthen us greatly... hopefully we can work something out.

quote: I say we need one person who acts as an ambassador for ND and keeps an eye on their techs and such - Foreign Ministry, who will that be ?

Someone volunteered me, so I accepted and PJ affirmed the action. I'll be taking care of all relations with NDE.